σελ. 85: ἀγαθόν ἐστιν φίλον σχεῖν, καὶ εἰ ἀποθανούμεθα.
καλόν τὸ φιλῆσαι καὶ τὸν θανεῖν μέλλοντα.
ἀληθῆ λέγεις. τὰ γὰρ δάκρυα οὐκ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν, ἀλλ’ ἐκ φρενῶν.
σελ. 85: ἀγαθόν ἐστιν φίλον σχεῖν, καὶ εἰ ἀποθανούμεθα.
καλόν τὸ φιλῆσαι καὶ τὸν θανεῖν μέλλοντα.
ἀληθῆ λέγεις. τὰ γὰρ δάκρυα οὐκ ἐξ ὀφθαλμῶν, ἀλλ’ ἐκ φρενῶν.
σελ. 85: ἀγαθόν ἐστιν φίλον σχεῖν, καὶ εἰ ἀποθανούμεθα.
καλόν τὸ φιλῆσαι καὶ τὸν θανεῖν μέλλοντα.
“Kissing even one who is to die is fine.” ?! That’s no paraphrase.
(And θανεῖν should be ἀποθανεῖν or better ἀποθανεῖσθαι.)
My amazon review, which partly addresses the comments of Daivid and Tugodum on Coderch’s style:
The point of reading modern ancient Greek is that it is more comprehensible and so easier to internalize what you are reading. Or to put it another way the language part of your brain doesn’t give up and you don’t have to fall back on the analytical part of your brain.
But is this really easier than say the Ephesian Tale of Anthia and Habrocomes
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0649%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1
For me the Ephesian tale is a bit easier. I do need something that is easier than the Ephesian tale but if I have to struggle with something that’s too difficult for me then something from the extant texts is preferable to modern Ancient Greek.
So if modern ancient Greek is not simpler than the easiest of the extant texts, what’s the point?
So if modern ancient Greek is not simpler than the easiest of the extant texts, what’s the point?
For me, the point is that the Ephesian Tale was not unreasonably characterized by its translator as “a specimen of penny dreadful literature in antiquity,” whereas the Little Prince is, in Markos’ concise formulation, to which I fully subscribe, “one of the greatest specimens of literature ever produced. Sad, iconic, wise, devastatingly satiric, it is a credo to anyone who has loved and lost and suffered and has been in need of a sheep or a slow walk towards a fountain.” Reading it is, for me, much more than a mere linguistic exercise.
διὰ τί οὖν ποτε ἀπέλιπον τὸ βασιλείδιον τὴν ἀνθεμίδα, καίτοι τὴν φιλίαν αὐτῷ ἁπλῶς ὁμολογήσασαν; τί ἂν λέγοιτε;
I would perfectly understand if nobody responds to this one and apologize in advance to those annoyed yet be grateful should someone answer: what is the force of “δοξαν” in “δοξαν σοι απελθειν, απελθε” (p. 43)?
See the beginning of your Accusative Absolute thread, your δεον question. δοξαν is neuter accusative (or nom.) aorist participle. Impersonal verbs use acc.abs. instead of gen.abs. Here (without looking at the context) I expect it will be more or less equivalent to εαν δοξῃ σοι.
Cf. the Dylan classic, If you gotta go, go now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgQq44BelM
Wow… Mea stultitia… Thanks a lot!
My apologies again: what might ὀρῶς stand for? TLG does not know this form, found in a marginalia on p. 45: ψελλιζω = “ὀρῶς εκφωνειν ου δυναμαι.” Could it be ὀρθῶς?
Presumably so.
Thanks!
διὰ τί οὖν ποτε ἀπέλιπον τὸ βασιλείδιον τὴν ἀνθεμίδα, καίτοι τὴν φιλίαν αὐτῷ ἁπλῶς ὁμολογήσασαν; τί ἂν λέγοιτε;
καλὸν ἐρώτημα τούτ ἐστιν. ![]()
νομίζω ἔγωγε ὅτι μωρὸς ἦν τὸ βασιλείδιον. τούτῳ γὰρ εἶπε ἡ ἀνθεμίς “ἀπελθέ!” ἀλλ’ οὐκ ἔδει τοῦτον ἀκούειν τῆς ἀνθεμίδος. μόνον ἔδει βλέπειν αὐτὴν καὶ ὀσφραίνεσθαι αὐτῆς. νέος δ’ ἦν ὁ παῖς. ![]()
The point of reading modern ancient Greek is that it is more comprehensible and so easier to internalize what you are reading. Or to put it another way the language part of your brain doesn’t give up and you don’t have to fall back on the analytical part of your brain.
But is this really easier than say the Ephesian Tale of Anthia and Habrocomes
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0649%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D1
χαῖρε, φίλε Δαιυίδ.
Aside from the fact that some of us are super-familiar with the original, which makes the text singularly comprehensible, yes, τὸ βασιλείδιον is easier than the Ephesian Tale, IF YOU INCLUDE CODERCH’s monolingual notes. As you yourself pointed out, while he does use rare vocab, about 75% of the time, his notes give you a very easy rendering of the meaning. While he does occasionally use complex syntax, 50% of the time he gives you a simple L2 paraphrase of that syntax which is very easy. In fact, his notes use what Buth calls an “inter-language.” L 2 Inter-languages, by their definition designed to help teach languages, are by nature easier than real L2. One could re-write τὸ βασιλείδιον simply by incorporating Coderch’s notes into the text, and supplementing the 25% of the time where he does not provide helps with more helps, using his own method as your model. This resultant text would, I think, be easier than anything written in Ancient Greek.
I concede your point that Coderch’s text could have been easier if he used a more simple style, closer to Saint-Exupery’s. But for intermediate students, τὸ βασιλείδιον is still very easy, artful as far as it goes, and difficult enough to improve one’s Greek. I for one love it.
On the other hand, I have in on good authority that Christophe Rico is planning on writing his own Greek version. As you know, Rico writes (and speaks!) a simple, wonderfully clear Koine, and his version is likely to please you. Reading Rico’s text, along with having grandchildren and seeing the President get reelected in 2020, are all that remain on Markos’ bucket list.
So if modern ancient Greek is not simpler than the easiest of the extant texts, what’s the point?
Reading it is, for me, much more than a mere linguistic exercise.
κἀμοι, φίλτατε.
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σελ. 99: ἐνθάδε πάρεστι…πάντα τετέλεσται…
ἰδοῦ…ἱκανόν ἐστιν…
γένοιτο δὴ ταῦτα…ἀρκεῖ γὰρ ἡμῖν…
ἀπέχει…ἡ γὰρ ὥρα ἦλθεν…
καλῶς…τοῦτ’ ἐστι τὸ ὅλον…
σελ. 99: οὐκ ἐψόφησεν οὐδέν, τῆς ψάμμου ἕνεκα…
ἡσύχως ἔπεσε. αὐτὸν γὰρ ἐδέχθη ἡ κουφὴ γῆ.
σελ. 102: γράψατέ μοι ταχέως ὅτι ἐπανῆλθεν…
εὐθὺς ἄγγειλον σύγε τὴν τοῦ βασιλειδίου παρουσίαν!
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 14:
1. τοῦτο τὸ βιβλίον ἀνέγνω ὁ κυβερνήτης ὅτε ἑξέτης ἦν.
2. εἰκόνα τινὰ ἐποίησεν ὄφεώς τινος.
3. πῖλόν τι βλέπουσιν ἐν τῷ διαγράμματι οἱ γέροντες.
4. οὗτως οἱ τελεῖοι ἄνθρωποι συνεβούλευσαν.
5. ἔμαθε τὸ ἐν τῷ ἀεροσκάφει πέτεσθαι.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 19:
1. ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ τῆς Σαχάρας ἐδυστύχησεν ὁ κυβερνήτης.
2. πρῷ ἐφάνη τὸ βασιλείδιον.
3. ἀγνοῦ ἐπιθυμεῖ ὁ μικρὸς ἄρχων. τούτου γὰρ δεῖται.
4. διέγραψεν τούτῳ διάγραμμα ὃ δείκνυσι τὸν ἀγνόν.
5. ἐν τῷ διαγράμματι τῷ δεικνύντι τὸν ἀγνὸν ἐν θήκῃ εὐδόκησε τὸ βασιλείδιον.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 21:
1. ἐξ οὐρανοῦ ἔπεσεν ὁ παῖς.
2. οἰκία λίαν μικρὰ τῷ βασιλειδίῳ ἦν.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 26:
1. τοῖς μακροῖς πλανητοῖς ὀνόματα δίδομεν.
2. τὸ τοῦ βασιλειδίου πλανητὸν πρῶτον ἀστρόνομος Τοῦρκός τις εἶδε.
3. φοροῦντι ἱμάτιον κακὸν οὐδεὶς ἐπίστευσε τῷ ἀστρονόμῳ.
4. ἐσθῆσι χρωμένῳ Εὐρωπαίαις νῦν πάντες πεπιστεύκασι τῷ ἀστρονόμῳ.
5. ἐν ἀριθμοῖς οἱ ἐν πνεύματι γέροντες εὐδοκοῦσιν.
On the other hand, I have in on good authority that Christophe Rico is planning on writing his own Greek version. As you know, Rico writes (and speaks!) a simple, wonderfully clear Koine, and his version is likely to please you.
That is very good news. I hope he doesn’t feel it’s not needed because someone else has produced a version.
- Well, for me regardless of the text, I will read anything Coderch writes because I am such a fan of his Orberg-like monolingual method. Some of us have been waiting for a book like this for years.
I don’t think the issue is whether the reader can stay in Ancient Greek but whether they can keep relating the text with the language part of their brain. Looking up a word for the English meaning will bounce you into the analytical part of your brain but the same will also happen if a text is too difficult. Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata works because the underlying text is sufficiently easy that the monolingual support is sufficient. Coderch to my mind has junked the most important part (keep it easy) while keeping the part that is secondary - provide monolingual support.
- As Tugodum says, if you love the underlying text, you will want to read it no matter how hard it is. I have never read Andrew Wilson’s ΑΡΕΙΟΣ ΠΟΤΗΡ, not because it is hard (which it is) but because that particular Ur text does not interest me, as the Little Prince obviously does. I guess it’s not one of your favorites?
I have never read the Little Prince but that is a plus because it is better to read something fresh than going over old ground. But it is too difficult for me. On the other hand the Ephesian tale is a window into Greek attitudes. And it is written by a native speaker. Having a text to read that is for me comprehensible in the true sense of the word far outweighs the risk that someone like Coderch or Ricco might write something that is quite the way Xenophon would have put it. But if there are two texts of equal difficulty then the native speaker written one will win every time. And to be honest Coderch is for me even harder that the Ephesian tale.
(And all he had to do was be true to the original!!
)
But I do see why you see it differently.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 30:
1. οἱ Βαοβάβοι εἰσὶ κακὰ δένδρα καὶ μεγάλλα. λέγουσι δέ τινες ὅτι οἱ Βαοβάβοι οἱ Νάζις ἀλληγορούμενοί εἰσι.
2. αὐξανόμενοι, πάντα τε καὶ πάντας ἀποκτείνουσι οὗτοι.
3. ἀνθρωπός τις ἀργὸς καὶ ἄπονος, ᾧ ἐργάζεσθαι οὐκ ἀρέσκει, τριῶν θάμνων ἠμέλησε.
4. ἵνα διδάσκῃ τοὺς παῖδας περὶ τοῦ τῶν Βαοβάβων κινδύνου τούτους διέγραψε.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 32:
1. τὸ θεᾶσθαι τὸν ἥλιον δύντα ἤρεσκει τῷ μικρῷ ἄρχοντι.
2. ἔδει τὸ βασιλείδιον, θέλοντα ἰδεῖν τὴν τοῦ ἡλίου δυσμήν, τὴν καθέδραν κινεῖν.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 36:
1. ἔμελλε αὐτῷ τῆς τοῦ ἀεροσκάφους βλάβης. περὶ δὲ τῆς τοῦ ὕδατος χρείας πολὺ ἐφρόντιζε.
2. ἐρωτήμασι πολλοῖς ἐνώχλησε τῷ κυβερνήτῃ ὁ μικρὸς ἄρχων.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 40:
1. τῇ τοῦ ἠλίου ἀνατολῇ τὴν ἀνθεμίδα τὸ βασιλείδιον εἶδε.
2. ἄκοσμον εἶναι εἶπεν αὕτη.
3. ἀριστᾶν ἐθέλησε τὸ ῥόδον.
4. ἄνεμοι μικροὶ φοβεῖ αὐτήν.
5. τοῦτο τὸ ἐρώτημα οὐ συνῆκα.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 43:
1. τὸ πλανητὸν ἐκόσμησε καὶ τὸ ῥόδον διηκόνησε.
2. τὸν ἔρωτα αὐτῆς καὶ τὴν φιλίαν καὶ τὴν ἀγάπην ἐκφωνεῖ. τὴν δὲ μωρίαν.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 49:
1. τὸ πρώτον πλανητὸν ὑπὸ βασιλέως τινὸς ᾠκεῖτο.
2. ὁ πειθόμενος ἀρέσκει τῷ βασιλεῖ.
3. πολλοὺς μὲν ὑπηκόους νομίζει ὁ βασιλεὺς ἔχειν. οὐδένα δὲ τῷ ὄντι ἔχει.
4. μόνα ἃ ἄνθρωποι ποιῆσαι δύνανται κελεύει ὁ βασιλεύς.
ἀποκρίσεις τοῖς ἐρωτήμασι τοῖς ἐπὶ σελ. 51:
1.ἐν τῷ δευτέρῳ πλανητῷ ᾤκησε ἄνθρωπός τις νομίζων πάντας ἑαυτόν θαυμάζειν.
2.ἐν ἐπαίνῳ χαίρει ὁ Βασιλεύς.
3.χεῖρα πρὸς χεῖρα ἔτυψε τὸ βασιλείδιον.
But I do see why you see it differently.
πῶς γὰρ οὔ? τοῦτον γὰρ τὸν μικρόν ἄρχοντα οὐ τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ὁρῶ, ἀλλὰ τῇ ψύχῃ
σελ. 80 τῇ ψύχῃ μόνῃ δυνάμεθα ἀκριβῶς ἰδεῖν.
ω φιλε Μαρκε, δοκεις γε μοι προκοπην ποιεῖσθαί τινα, δεῖ δέ σε ὅντινα δήποτ’ αἰτήσασθαι συλλαμβάνειν σοι τὰ σφάλματα διορθουμένῳ, ὧν εν ταυταις ενεστι ταις αποκρισεσι πολλα. και δη χρονου ηδη παρεληλυθοτος παμπολλου παντως σε δει την του τε χρησιν μαθειν ἥτις εστι· ειωθας γαρ καταχρησασθαι.
Markos, I think I see some signs of improvement in your Greek, but you should ask someone (maybe bedwere?) to help you correct your errors. There are many in these αποκρισεις. And it’s high time you learned how τε is used. You constantly misuse it, resulting in gibberish. Here’s three instances:
αὐξανόμενοι, πάντα τε πάντας ἀποκτείνουσι οὗτοι.
βαίνομεν ἡμεῖς ὅ τε παῖς τ’ ἐγὼ ἥσυχοι πρὸς κρήνην τινά.
καλῶς γράφεις, φίλτατε, καὶ ἀκριβῶς τε γελοίως.
Can you see what you’re doing wrong?
“τὸ βασειλίδιον ἐχασμήσατо· τὴν οὐκ ἀκικνουμένην δυσμὴν ἐπόθει.” (p. 47) Am wondering what might ἀκικνουμένην possibly stand for here… TLG does not find it ![]()
ἀφικνουμένην?
ἀφικνουμένην?
Seems right. Thanks a lot!