Ok, I’ve read a lot of conflicting accounts regarding the best way for someone who’s just starting Latin in a self-study endeavor to proceed. Thus, I’m seeking a bit of council to hopefully form some reasonable course of action.
First, my objective: to learn to read Latin proficiently. Composition is a desirable skill, but definitely takes a back seat to reading comprehension in the short term. Speaking is also desirable, although I think pronunciation should be a relatively easy endeavor, if I were to find a latin text and a recording of it being spoke, so that I could follow along. Time frame is mostly irrelevant, although quick and notable progress is sure to keep morale high.
Materials available: I currently own Wheelock’s Latin, 6th Ed., Lingua Latina: Part 1 and Lingua Latina: Colloquia.
Based on what I’ve read on these forums, I see three “reasonable” courses of action. Please advise on which one is best to pursue with the above goals and materials in mind.
Read Lingua Latina from day 1. Use no secondary texts and focus on understanding every construction I encounter, every time I encounter it. Learn the vocabulary through exposure and drilling.
Memorize the paradigms in the back of Wheelock’s Latin by the Dowling Method. After the exercise is over, read Lingua Latina, in the same manner as suggested above.
Work through the 40 lessons of Wheelock’s Latin, learning the vocabulary and paradigms through drilling and practicing on the presented sentences and passages. After finishing, read through Lingua Latina, but probably at a faster pace than in option 1 and 2, with much less scrutiny.
Of the three, option 1 is the most attractive to me, by far. If it won’t actually result in a sane foundation for me to continue on, however, it’s not worth pursuing. My concern with option 2 is that I strongly believe I would end up memorizing the order of the paradigms, as opposed to what each ending actually meant. If this ended up being the case, option 2 would be an incredible waste of time.
Alas, this post grows too long. It’s completely possible that none of the three are optimal. I realize that everyone is different and that it’s probably been a while since anyone with insight into what is best was on “day 1” of their Latin studies, but hopefully you guys can shed a bit of light on the issue for me.
Thanks a lot!
Looking forward to further interactions as
I endeavor into this sure-to-be rewarding hobby,
I don’t know if I’d recommend the Dowling method to someone who has no experience of Latin at all and doesn’t know except abstractly what the cases mean. I started with Wheelock and now I’m finishing him up while I memorise a-la-Dowling (I speak no French!). Then it’s time for the beckoning Lingua Latina, which I really, really want to begin (3 months more maybe???).
I think Dowling, once you’ve had a minimal amount of experience with the cases (not just reading about them but trying them out fo yourself, verbs too) is right: if you don’t memorise brutely, you’ll never master the language. For some people deep memorisation happens as a matter of course with their practice of the language. For me, however, his method has proven instrumental (I’ve gotta face up to it, I’m a slow learner). Depends I guess what you feel comfortable with.
As for hobby, I don’t think that’s what I’d call the serious studying of Latin!
I have devised my own self-learning method for Latin that, to me, works well. I have “The New College” Latin-English Dictionary just to have close by for cross-referrencing.
I downloaded this handy program so I can do my translations a little more quickly called “Words” at this site http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm . When I study I open the program twice (DOS based) one for English to Latin the other Latin to English.
From this site (TEXTKIT) I downloaded D’ooge Learning Latin PDF file with the key. I also downloaded Wheelock’s key because I also have Wheelocks 6th Edition. I ordered a book from Amazon.com called “501 Latin Verbs” by Richard Prior & Joseph Wohlberg. This book is a great help in understaning the verb forms.
In the D’ooge book, I go chapter to chapter in succession and take my time, do the exercises and check them with the key. This way I can learn what mistakes I made and it also reminds me to pay attention to the text because a lot of my errors are “stupid” because I didn’t heed the rules. Great learning tool for me. I then use Wheelock and study and do the same type exercises as I did in D’ooge. Example: I am studying Demonstratives (Adjectives/Pronouns) in D’ooge and Wheelock. This gives me a little more prespective on the lessons and it sure does help you memorize words and grammer. I am basically “bouncing” around from one chapter to another in Wheelock because I am using the D’ooge text to take the lead. I use the other texts for practice and cross-referrencing.
I also use the “The Idiots Guide” to Learning Latin. Though, in my opinion, the text is vague in many spots, it too has helped me understand a few things I couldn’t grasp in the other texts.
I think I have done well in the last few months since I did take latin 20 years ago and I am now just starting back up. From my personal experience, I have learned more on Latin than any other language I tried to learn.
A mix of the first two options is what I would recommend.
Apropos, someone asked me a while back and I neglected to respond, if I had cheated with the Dowling Method. I didn’t, since I did it all in a couple weeks (and darn my hand hurt after it all), but I did nothing else except eat and sometimes sleep. To that person, you can definitely start the first few chapters of Lingua Latina since the grammar is minimal in the beginning, but after that you’ll begin to recognize where it’s best to finish the Dowling Method before preceding. Mixing it up a bit is easy on the brain, and the eyes.
I encourage you to finish your copy of Wheelock’s and write the paradigms at least twice a day, or 200 times (Dowling method?) [as a personal aside, the aforementioned method always reminds me of a certain KK Downing, a-la-Sacerdos Discipuli Sicarii] and then read lingva latina. I like Kip’s Idea of also using the idiot’s guide to learning latin (or Latin for Dummies) I used L4D back in 2003 (when I first started wanting to learn the immortal language), but, alone, it isn’t as good as Wheelock’s or another thorough book. They (Idiot’s or Dummies’) do have a tendency to explain things in an easier way, and they’re pretty funny sometimes, too! (plus… who doesn’t want more books?)
If you consistantly write your paradigms as you learn them, you avoid merely learning the order of the cases, and it’s also more effective than merely learning different forms of words, which would be meaningless without the concepts to back them up. And as you progress further into your studies, writing paradigms can increase your understanding of the concepts which back the cases (the ablative, for example) if you think about what you’re writing. disce magnis cum viribus, amice! (to take a demi-cue from nostos)
Alas, I have never had the benifit of reading lingvam latinam, so I can’t vouche for it. I’ve heard good things though. (understatement )
The recopying of all the paradigms begins after having memorized all of them. If you’re only memorizing in the process of writing the 200 times, the true 200 doesn’t start to be counted until you have really memorized them all, and can just pick up a piece of paper of pen and write out all the nouns without having to refer to anything but your recall.
Luce, so if I were to use the Dowling method, I would need to finish Wheelock’s (and completely learn them), and then write the paradigms 200 times. Would you reccomend writing out the paradigms as an aid to learning them? I’ve started doing that (writing them at least 2 times a day after I first encounter them) and have not had to worry as much about remembering the forms as I used to.
But one should only start writing the paradigms 200X (ie. using the Dowling method) after learning them by heart, right?
Ah yes! of course you must write them out to memorize them, and say them outloud as you do them; auditory learning is very, very important as well.
As for Wheelock: drop it. It’s a joke compared to what will be available to you. I personally find it offensive. Do as you will, but my recommendation is to memorize the paradigms (could take you a week at most at this point to finish), then write them all out; if you have the time and are diligent, at most a month to fully complete everything, including the pronouns (god I do love those pronouns). Once you have memorized and begin writing out the paradigms, I don’t see why you can’t start Lingua Latina as you do the 200x. They’ll each be a good break from one another that way.
I admit, Wheelock had a couple cute things that’ll stay with me, but only those comments in English; otherwise it seems to me a pretty ineffective learning tool. Though, the connections to English words and all the varied roots are especially lovely. I’d recommend Wheelock as a passing-over read after finishing the first part of Lingua Latina, as an enrichment and most cerebral way to learn the grammatical terminology.
I’m trying my hand at Lingua Latina first. When I hit that wall in Lingua Latina, where the grammar starts to get too heavy, I’ll plan on retreating to the Dowling Method.
I must confess, I find it odd that the Dowling Method works to memorize paradigms. After reading an essay entitled “The Art of Reading Latin,” it seems like the most important question to be able to answer is “What are all the possible meanings of this word (given the sentence so far and the context)?” To me, that means you want to be saying “portae could be gen./dat. sg. or nom./voc. pl.” If that’s the case, why are we learning “gen. sg. of porta is portae”?
Anyway, like I said, I have a bit of direction now, which is much appreciated. I hope Lingua Latina doesn’t become too thick too fast, because it’s surely more fun than writing paradigms. Still, whatever gets me there fastest, given my time constraints, is the path I hope to take.
Would the Intensive Course also be a good bet if you find the assigned text inadequate? My Greek class uses Athenaze and its pace is set by the slowest students, so I’m two and a half chapters ahead of the class. I also use a second, systematic-grammar, textbook on the side to increase my vocabulary, to clarify dodgy explanations, and to drill it all into my head with roughly 25 new vocabulary words and 80 repetitive exercises per five-page chapter.
I’m taking Latin next year and will use Wheelock. It’s the standard, it’s supposed to be light and easy, it’s aimed at those with no previous experience with an inflected language – all of which seem to me about as tedious as a filibuster. I’m considering getting Moreland and Fleischer’s Intensive Course to supplement by Wheelock but the Amazon reviews say that it’s a little bit too intensive and that it can lead to problems. But then again, I can handle both Balme/Lawall and Mastronarde at once easily.
My apologies if this has been asked before. In short: since Wheelock’s Latin is supposed to be hardly rigorous, especially for a studet with a year of classical language under his belt, I’ll in time want to get a second book with a brisker base and a more purely grammar-and-vocab focus (the dual approach of grunt-work and relaxation that’s yielded the best results in Greek). Which book should the supplement be? Aside from Moreland/Fleischer, there are a ton of them out there.
Thanks! And once again I apologize if this has been asked many a time; I don’t come onto these boards too often.
Just to mention my experience, I self-studied with Wheelock over a good summer’s worth of intense studying, and it was pretty successful (I can e.g. read a sentence ). I don’t know, but I liked the short chapters with their simple sentences to grasp the concepts and then the longer readings at the back. From there, I was able to move on to (heavily annotated) actual Latin texts, and even now, after a long break, things seem to be going well. I guess one thing that really helped me was being a semi-native speaker of an inflected language, so some of the basic concepts weren’t all that foreign to me.
That essay made a lot of sense to me, and it’s sort of how I approach things. After watching myself think in an inflected language, I realize that what I do is think of sentences as being made up of slots (the who, the what, etc.) and as I hear (or read) each word, I try to juggle all the possible way those slots can be filled, and then try to rule them out one by one with each new word I get. (Hope that made sense.) Some Latin (or Ancient Greek) sentences can get really complex and that really slows me down, but one good thing is that I don’t do any mental translation into English, and the process did get faster for me after lots of reading.
And to answer your question, for me at least, I always did try to “merge” similar forms, and I’d write out my paradigms so that a form is only written once (and I’d ignore vowel length too since this isn’t usually marked). So I’d write something like
sg. nom/abl - porta
sg. acc - portam
sg. dat/gen pl.nom - portae
pl. acc - portas
pl. dat/abl - portis
pl. gen - portarum
because I didn’t want to get in the habit of associating a form with just one specific case.
To the original poster seeking advice about how to launch a home study program.
First of all I salute you for doing this. People have all kinds of hobbies, some of which are trivial or even pathetic. You could do far worse than taking up these humane studies.
Second, since I myself have learned soley by means of home study, I have some experience from which to address your issue. Although I agree with the second part of Dowling’s program (use some “direct method”) I disagree with the first (learn all the forms before doing anything else). You will drive yourself crazy, unless I am mistaken, if you try to do that. Here would be my program for in-home latin language acquisition:
Work your way through your Wheelock or other other introductory text such as are available on this site. I’d suggest Wheelock. You can either work through your text independently or in conjuction with a textkit group or “LatinStudy” group. The latter has several on-going Wheelock groups that can be jumped into at any time. It’s free. One advantage, however, of “going independent” is that if you are learning by yourself you can set your own pace. I like a fast pace and reviewed Wheelock in three months - although I admit that I did some of the exercises mentally rather than writing them out.
At this point I’d plow into “Familia Romana” for a thorough review of everything. Unfortunately, at least in my case, with latin relearning is often necessary. Another good resource at this phase would be the “Oxford Latin Course”. It comes in three parts and a reader. In addition there are two excellent tapes that are sold independently. I might actually suggest that you start with Oxford except for the fact that the grammar explanations in Wheelock are superior. With due diligence, you could get through steps 1 and 2 in around a year.
Now you are a buddding latinist. So it’s time to join the Grex Latine Loquentium and time to start reading “Ephemeris”. It is in these forums that “living latin” is cultivated. By cultivating living latin you will be far better prepared to tackle classical texts. Also helpful at this intermediate stage would be a review in spoken latin. Traupman has a conversation tape and Assimil offers three. All are excellent.
Now the world of latin literature is open to you. I would start with “glossed” passages from Cattullus, Horace, and Circero and go on to whatever attracks you. Be sure not to neglect the renaissance and even later writers.
Start writing essays in latin. Become a correspondent for one of the latin language media outlets. These exist both on the net and in hard copy.
Start attending summer colloquia and seminars. There you will meet the best latinists from around the world and will have a chance to live for a while in an environment in which only latin is spoken. Two of note are in the United States, the rest are mainly in Europe.
By now you have formed a latin circle for your city our town. You and your friends get together to discuss art, literature, and history - all in the latin language.
At this point you are among the “purpurati” elite of modern latin studies. You will be able to read latin from any period with ease.
I personally am at stage 5 and it has taken me three years of study. This summer I’ll probably attend a month long seminar in Kentucky. Not bad for a guy who started all this on a whim.
Wow, Kynetus, that is like totally my goal! I agree with you on everything, and it’s very similar to the approach I’m following myself. After a year of studying Latin, I am looking to use it as much as possible: reading it, writing it, and, as I find more willing people, speaking it. I will look myself into joining the Grex Latine Loquentium.
I salute you as goddess born because wasn’t the moon considered a goddess and don’t you use the moniker “filius lunae”. Do you have a real name or a latin name that I can address you with.
If you’ve completed a year of latin study and if that year covered all the basic latin grammar, then you might be ready now to join the grex. When I first joined I was at about the same level as you are know and could hardly understand anything. Very quickly however I began to pick phrases and meanings up from context. Now after two years of being a grex participant (to tell the truth, however, the two years were not contiguous), I still don’t understand at first sight absolutely everything I read on the grex but the difficulties that I encounter can usually be resolved using the “Words” program or some of the other online dictionaries that I recently referenced in a post on the “open board”. One additional word of advice. If you join, start writing. A lot of people who join just read because they are afraid of embarrassing themselves before the star writers. I wasn’t afraid and as a result, after a while, I could compose faster and faster. My style and breadth of expression do not approach those of most eloquent grex participants, but I know I have come a long way and that one of the best methods is to learn by doing.
See you around the boards and perhaps on the grex as well.
If you’ve completed a year of latin study and if that year covered all the basic latin grammar, then you might be ready now to join the grex. When I first joined I was at about the same level as you are know and could hardly understand anything. Very quickly however I began to pick phrases and meanings up from context. Now after two years of being a grex participant (to tell the truth, however, the two years were not contiguous), I still don’t understand at first sight absolutely everything I read on the grex but the difficulties that I encounter can usually be resolved using the “Words” program or some of the other online dictionaries that I recently referenced in a post on the “open board”. One additional word of advice. If you join, start writing. A lot of people who join just read because they are afraid of embarrassing themselves before the star writers. I wasn’t afraid and as a result, after a while, I could compose faster and faster. My style and breadth of expression do not approach those of most eloquent grex participants, but I know I have come a long way and that one of the best methods is to learn by doing.
Absolutely, I agree with you. Like I’ve said before in the forums here, I’ve now read a great part of Ovid’s Metamorphoses, a lot of Medieval stuff (I really like it), and now, a few weeks ago, I started reading Harrius Potter, and you have no idea how much I’m enjoying it. True, it isn’t Caesar or Cicero, but it’s still Latin, and it’s fun being able to read it and understand it without giving much thought to it. It’s awesome! And I do enjoy going around the Latin boards and reading, like the Nuntii Latini, though I’ve never posted anything there.. and yeah, I’m far from being proficient, though that would be my goal. But I will try to post, as you advice.
See you around the boards and perhaps on the grex as well.
Actually, that’s where Lingua Latina would really be best, I think. Having a Latin class, and thus a teacher, allows difficult questions to be resolved (though Lingua Latina tends to resolve them on its own over time). Since you already have some good experience, you’re ready, which deserves the boldface type.
I neglected to respond fully in my previous post: the Dowling Method works because of its necessary conjunction with Lingua Latina, without which it is useless.
The combination is the only possible way to catch up with the “Roman boy” in Hale’s very well reasoned argument – it is a shame Wheelock and his ilk did not heed the professor’s calls.
AMICI: Regarding the Dowling method. It’s not really a method at all; just someone who has recommended that all forms be learned cold before proceeding with Lingua Latina. Now Lingua Latina, that’s a real method! But LL itself doesn’t demand that the student learn all the forms before beginning. So all this Dowling fellow has done (although no doubt he’s a fine human) really is to recommend that forms be learned thoroughly at the outset. You are supposed to do this by writing out each form by hand 200 times! There are four declensions, or five if you count the “io” verbs from the third. To do a complete conjugation of just “amare” would take me (if I write small) one page. Okay that’s 200 pages for amare. Do that for each of others and you are up to 1000 pages. Fine you’ve mastered verbs, so turn your attention to five noun declensions and the pronominal declensions. That’ll be at least another 500 pages of handwritten stuff! Maybe I haven’t been following the thread closely enough, but I am wondering whether anyone attest that he/she has actually done this? And even if someone were to go this route, I can’t see the value of writing out all these tenses and cases without really understanding what they mean or how they are used.
Now I will concede that there can be value in writing out forms - although personally I have never done so due to EXTREME ADD - for those among us who are very meticulous. In my case, eventually, by just plugging away and by LOOKING at and STUDYING the forms I got so I could recognize them in context. But it was only when I began to try to write in latin tht I finally began to interiorize them. When I first started writing, I’d check virtually everything I put down on the screen against Whittiker’s WORDS program. I still use this parsing machine heavily but the forms for many of the commoner words are in my brain now. The Assimil method and the LL method each in their own way recognize the importance of learning forms. Assimil assumes that brains can most easily come to grips with the forms through hearing; while LL assumes that the same can me accomplished by reading and then doing imitative exercises based on the readings.
In any event, I would not recommend the so called Dowling Method to anyone. Just think of the negative impacts on our nation’s supply of trees! On the other hand, I heartily applaud both LL and Assimil.
Dixi. Vester Kynetus
In response to your query, I have indeed gone thoroughly through the Dowling method, and copied out all the nouns and verbs (the back of Wheelock, essentially) two hundred times. I admit a great part of the recopying was done by typing on the computer, both physically (on the hand) and environmentally friendlier, as well as much faster. But now I know them all, and baring some horrible accident (ferrum tinge), I will know them the rest of my life.
I confess you are right, it is essential to have some idea of the paradigms and their individual meanings before brute-memorizing them, though Dowling makes that clear in his libellus. Thankfully I’ve had a long though feable love affair with Latin, until last summer when I began the Dowling Method and plowed into Lingua Latina, and my experience with the Italian language has surely been invaluable.
I agree as well that writing in Latin is essential, writing and speaking both, which I suppose we can simplify by saying ‘producing’ Latin, or any language, is the only real way to learn it.
But if you think writing out all the paradigms 200 times is crazy, listen to this: I write out every single chapter of Lingua Latina, at least once. Time consuming, but extremely enriching. Being forced to slow down and assimilate every sentence and phrase at a time has been invaluable to internalizing the language. I also challenge myself, try to recite (always outloud) a phrase or sentence, making it as long as possible, and then type it out by memory. If I make a mistake, I do it again. Systematic, and very effective.
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