hi again
I am not sure whether i asked this question before or not. Anyway is any one aware of an english translation of ll (vol 1/2).
I know one is not supposed to translate in the Natural Method but it would help iron out any remaining grammar/comprehension problems if a translation were available. Would anyone be willing to join me in such a translation project. We could post our result here on textkit if Orberg didn’t mind.
best of luck
little flower
Hey there,
I had decided before I started LL that I would translate the chapters, but it quickly became apparent that it involved far too much effort for little apparent extra benefit. It takes a few hours at least to comprehensively go over a single chapter orally, so I shudder to think how long it would take to make a physical translation. If you’re having specific problems with Latin grammar, I’d suggest that it might be better to identify them in the text as they come up, and then iron them out individually and with recourse to Wheelock or some other text, rather than attempting to solve them by, in effect re-writing the entire text. It just seems to me like you’d be using a hammer to crack a nut, and I know that I’d be pretty bored/annoyed/frustrated after a few chapters. Anyhoo, just my 10c. As to online translations, I haven’t found one.
Just post some lines you are having difficulty with and give your best translation. If there are any mistakes, we will discuss them with you and help you understand the grammar better.
Hi Little Flower,
Let this be my small tribute to the memory of Hans H. Oerberg, who died four days ago at the age of 90.
For some reason I have English translations of Book 1, chapters 1-4,10 and 26 in a folder on my computer. The files date from 2004 but I have no idea where I found them. I’m pretty sure I’m not the translator! They seem pretty accurate, though by no means Shakespeare. The best way to use them would probably be to translate them back to Latin, sentence by sentence, checking against your book as you do so.
Here’s Chapter 2 (if you like, I can send the rest to you in a Textkit private mail):
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Translation: Chapter 2, Familia Romana, The Roman Household.
I. Iulius is a Roman man. Aemilia is a Roman woman. Marcus is a Roman boy. Quintus also is a Roman boy. Iulia is a Roman girl.
Marcus and Quintus are not men, but boys. Iulius and Medus and Davus are men. Aemilia and Delia and Syra are Women. Is Iulia a woman? Iulia isn’t a women, but a small girl.
Iulius, Aemilia, Marcus, Quintus, Iulia, Syra, Davus, Delia and Medus are a Roman Household. Iulius is father. Aemilia is mother. Iulius is the father of Marcus and Quintus. Iulius also is Iulia’s father. Aemilia is the mother of Marcus and Quintus and Iulia. Marcus is the son of Iulius. Marcus is the son of Aemilia. Quintus also is the son of Iulius and Aemilia. Iulia is the daughter of Iulius and Aemilia.
Who is Marcus? Marcus is a Roman boy. Who is the father of Marcus? Iulius is the father of Marcus. Who is the mother of Marcus? Marcus’ mother is Aemilia. Who is Iulia? Iulia is a Roman girl. Who is Iulia’s mother? Aemilia is Iulia’s mother. Iulia’s father is Iulius. Iulia is Iulius’ daughter. Who are Iulius’ sons? The sons of Iulius are Quitus and Marcus. Marcus, Quintus and Iulia are three children. Children are sons and daughters. Marcus and Quintus and Iulia are the children of Iulius and Aemilia. In Iulius’ family are three children: two sons and one daughter.
II. Is Medus a son of Iulius? Medus is not a son of Iulius, Medus is a servant of Iulius. Iulius is the master of Medus. Iulius is the master of servants. Davus also is a servant. Medus and Davus are two servants. Iulius is the master of Davus and Medus. Iulius is a master of servants and a father of children.
[paragraph missing here]
Whose servant is Davus? Davus is Iulius’ servant. Whose maid servant is Syra? Syra is Aemilia’s maid servant.
How many children are in the household? In the household are three children. How many sons and how many daughters? Two sons and one daughter. How many servants are in the household? In the household are one hundred servants. In Iulius’ household are many servants, few children. Iulius is the master of many servants.
‘Two’ and ‘Three’ are numbers. ‘100’ also is a number. The number of servants is 100. The number of children is three. 100 is a big number. Three is a small number. The number of servants is big. The number of children is small. In the household of Iulius is a big number of servants, and a small number of children.
Medus is a Greek servant. Delia is a Greek maidservant. In the family of Iulius are many Greek servants and many Greek maidservants. Is Aemilia a Greek woman? Aemilia is not a Greek woman, but Roman. Iulius is not a Greek man, but Roman.
Sparta is a Greek city. Sparta, Delphi and Tusculum are three cities: two cities are Greek and one is a Roman city. In Greece and in Italy is a large number of cities. In Gaul is a large number of rivers. Rivers of Gaul are large. Are large rivers in Africa? In Africa one river is large: Nilus; other African rivers are small. Are there large Greek islands? Crete and Euboea are two large islands; the other Greek islands are small.
III. Who is Cornelius? Cornelius is a Roman lord. Iulius and Cornelius are two Roman lords. Medus is not a servant of Cornelius. Medus is a servant of Iulius.
Cornelius: “Whose servant is Medus?”
Iulius: “Medus is my servant.”
Cornelius: “Is Davus your servant?”
Iulius: “Davus also is my servant. My servants are Medus and Davus and many others…”
Cornelius: “Is Delia your maidservant?”
Iulius: “Delia is my maidservant, and Syra also is my maidservant. My maidservants are Delia and Syra and many others. My household is large.”
Cornelius: “How many servants are in your household?”
Iulius: “One hundred servants are in my household.”
Cornelius: “What?”
Iulius: “The number of my servants is one hundred.”
Cornelius: “One hundred Servants! The number of your servants is large!”
YOUR LATIN BOOK
Behold two Latin books: an ancient book and a new book. LINGUA LATINA is your first Latin book. The title of your book is ‘LINGUA LATINA’. Your book is not ancient, but new.
In LINGUA LATINA are many pages and many chapters: the first chapter, second, third, and all the rest. ‘IMPERIUM ROMANUM’ is the title of the first chapter. The title of the second chapter is ‘FAMILA ROMANA’. In chapter two there are six pages. In the first page of the second chapter are many new nouns: man, woman, boy, girl, household, and all the rest. There is a large number of Latin words.
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You should really consider buying the audio course. The recordings (I think they must be by Oerberg himself) are excellent.
Cheers,
Int
Hi Interaxus
Thanks for that. I would rather you sent the files to my email address if possible (saves space on my private mail) My email address is daniel.lane9@btinternet.com. Keep myself and Hans Orberg in the prayers if you are into prayer.
thanks
little flower.
Yes, I would join such a project. How would it be organised?
hi Novi.ialiste
Thanks for your interest.If its just the two of us then we will have to take it slowly. Realistically its a job for a group of 7/8 plus. If you will pardon the pun ‘Many Han’s make light work.’ The input of the more senior ‘members’ will be necessary especially as we progress towards the later chapters. I found the poetry sections (ch 34 etc) particularly tricky even with the help of my tutor ‘Dr ann martin’.
My plan would be something like this .1 assign the chapters to the revelant parties. 2 give a rough time frame for their completion .(of course this depends on how many hours one has available per week and ones experience in translating/comprehending ,etc) .3 cross check each others work (i.e if you are translating a chapter into english i will check it by translating it back into latin. 4 get the final draughts checked by a competent authority (e.g dr Ann). 5 post it on textkit. (This would depend on the agreement of the moderator(s).It would be nice to have a forum just for our selves dealing with ll questions but i think this has been enquired into in the past.
Also i would like to ask pullins (the revelant publishers) if the translation can be published without permission.There is also a program LLPSI demo i would like to enquire about.
Finally i would like to offer my condolences to the family and friends of Hans orberg. His poineering work in latin language learning has changed the world for the better. In my opinion there has never been a better time to learn classics (esp latin) and im sure that my friends and colleagues in textkit and latinum would vouch for that. In the immortal words of Shakespeare ‘There is a tide in the affairs of men which taken at its flood leads on to fortune…’ (Julius caesar)
Best of luck
Little flower
Yes, we should check that there would be no serious copyright problems first.
Otherwise maybe it could be done as a private project, i.e. files are emailed to each other without their being posted publicly.
I would be happy to take on a couple of the first 24 chapters (I’m just on chapter 25 now).
It would increase my interest to be involved in a collaboration. Studying alone can get a bit boring.
hi again novi
I emailed Pullins about copyright so we might have an answer soon hopefully. You must tell me a bit about yourself . I noticed from your posts that you are also interested in ancient greek. I am also inclined in that direction. However i am hoping to enter a catholic seminary some time soon and as the preferred option (SSPX) require latin i should practise that as much as posible.
I am Irish but living in Scotland .I have an American tutor (dr Ann) and we communicate via skype weekly By the way you are invited to join the 40 minute session if you want. We are revising ll pensum c’s and the exercitia (vol 1) at the moment. My skype name is Littleflower60 and anns is AnneMartin. Being that we meet on fridays at 10am it might be a bit awkward (esp if you live in the states or further a field).
There is also a possibility i could email you our sessions .I have recorded most of them over the past nearly two years via skylook. Most of ll is covered along with some of st thomas aquinas.(summa theologiae) .I am also spending a lot of time at the moment with adler (in latinum). I find this book very useful for practising the structures and vocab introduced via Orberg.
Anyway best of luck and i will keep in touch.
Dan lane
Hi little flower,
let’s hope that Pullins have no objection.
I have taken only a slight interest in Ancient Greek so far. I bought the book “A Reading Course in Homeric Greek” but for the time being I shall concentrate on Latin.
I live in Finland although I am British, from southern England originally. My parents were Scottish from Glasgow and Ayrshire and I was the first in the family born in England. Three of my great grandparents were Irish (County Sligo).
One of my older brothers used to live in Cruden Bay in a croft near the Bullers of Buchan. I visited there twice in the late '80s. He now lives in London.
Living in Finland my main foreign language is Finnish. I hope to learn Homeric Greek and Old English also but I feel that it is better to concentrate on one new foreign language at a time, so Latin it is for the time being.
I also need to work on improving my Finnish. It’s quite easy for me to use English mostly which impedes my progress in Finnish.
Professionally I do scientific research, so my language interests are hobbies apart from Finnish which I need to some extent for everyday life.
In case you wondered, my screen name, nov.ialiste, is a play on the name of a constructed language, Novial (= Nov IAL or new international auxiliary language) created by the linguist Otto Jespersen. A practitioner of Novial is a Novialist or in Novial a “novialiste”. But “nov ialiste” means “new IAList”. In past years I have taken an interest in IALs and Novial is my favourite, hence the screen name.
If you hear back from Pullins please post here to let us know.
All the best,
nov.ialiste
On edit: practitioner spelling.
Little Flower:
Hope you received chapters 1, 3, 4 and 10. Here’s the last one, Chapter 26:
Good luck with your project! Icarus says to his dad: “Tu id quod semel excogitavisti perficere soles”. Does that apply to you too?
If so, translating the whole of Familia Romana will well and truly ‘immerse’ you in lingua latina.
LF and Novi: A suggestion in case you decide to go ahead: If you post short translations (of about 20 lines each) regularly on Textkit (with chapter and line number references), it might spur Oerberg fans at Textkit to spot mistakes, suggest improvements, etc. Apart from aiding other Oerberg tyros, it might also bring others on board your project once word got out.
In the following chapter by anon I’ve highlighted the parts where Oerberg uses the Gerund in the original Latin (that’s the grammatical theme of the chapter) so folks can practise translating the phrases back to Latin gerunds for fun before checking against the original.
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Translation: Chapter 26, Daedalus et Icarus.
Quintus: “Didn’t King Minos pursue Theseus (when he was) fleeing with Ariadne?”
Syra: “The king certainly began to follow them, but the ship of Theseus was too fast. Minos, although he sailed quickly, wasn’t as fast as Theseus and wasn’t able to catch up with him. The angry king then seized Daedalus, who had made the thread and given it to Ariadne, and ordered him to be shut up in the Labyrinth together with his son Icarus; but father and son in a miraculous manner escaped out of the Labyrinth. Tomorrow I will tell to you about their escape, but today i have NO MORE TIME FOR TELLING STORIES: I have already SPENT AN HOUR IN STORY-TELLING.”
Quintus: "And you couldn’t spend your time better! It’s against the rules to break off STORY-TELLING in the middle of a story. Since you have already told the greater part of the story, you must tell the remaining part too. I’m READY TO LISTEN.
To this Syra says "Well then, because you are so KEEN TO LISTEN, I’ll tell you the rest of the story:
"Daedalus, locked up in the labyrinth with his son, wandered around within the walls and and couldn’t find the exit, even though he had built the Labyrinth himself. Therefore, since other ways were closed, that daring man decided to escape through the air. Icarus however, who didn’t know of his father’s plan, sat on the ground and said, “I’m tired FROM WALKING around in this prison that you yourself have built for us, father! We cannot escape by ourselves, and no-one will be able TO HELP US IN ESCAPING, like Ariadna helped Theseus. We don’t have much TIME LEFT TO LIVE, for our food has almost run out. I’m already almost dead. Unless the gods (will) help us, we will never leave here alive. O, good gods, bring us help!”
But Daedalus said, “What does it help calling the gods, while you sit idle here? Someone who doesn’t want to help himself, doesn’t deserve the aid of the gods. But don’t worry! I have already thought out a plan of escape. Even if the other routes are closed, one route lies open to us FOR ESCAPING. Observe that eagle that is flying in a large circle around our prison! Who is as free as a bird that can fly across mountains, valleys, rivers and oceans. Why don’t we imitate the birds of heaven? Minos, who rules over the land and the sea, is not the master of the air: we will fly away from here through the air! This is my plan. Nobody will be able to follow us (when we are) flying.” “I’m certainly KEEN ON FLYING” said Icarus, "but wings are NECESSARY FOR FLYING. Since the gods haven’t given us wings, we cannot fly. We’re humans, not birds. No one except a god can change his nature. Birds fly by nature, humans cannot do likewise.” Then Daedalus said, “What am I not able to do? Actually, by my skill, nature itself can be changed. I’ve already made many amazing things, which demonstrate my skill to everyone, not only magnificent buildings like this labyrinth, but also statues that can move by themselves just like live humans. I can make wings too, though the work is not easy.” “Your plan is certainly daring,” said Icarus, “but I like EVERY PLAN OF ESCAPING, and you usually carry out what you have once thought up.” “Of course I’ll carry out my plan” he replies, “Look, I have everything necessary for this job: feathers, wax, fire. With the fire I’ll melt the wax, with the melted wax I’ll join the feathers and stick them on your (upper) arms.”
"Daedalus therefore with his amazing skill made for himself and his son giant wings out of feathers, which he joined with wax and fixed on their arms. When he had finished the work he said, “The work is now complete, behold the latest example of my art. We are indeed not birds, but WE WILL IMITATE THE BIRDS IN FLYING. With the wind we will fly across the ocean fast, no bird will be able to follow us.”
"Icarus, KEEN TO FLY, moved his wings this way and that, but he couldn’t raise himself above the ground. “The wings can’t support me” he said, “you teach me fly!” At once Daedalus raised himself with his wings and said, “Unless you move the wings correctly, you can’t fly! Imitate me! THE ART OF FLYING isn’t so difficult. Move your wings up and down like this!” Thus Daedalus taught his son THE ART OF FLYING just like a bird teaches its young ones. Then having given his son a kiss he says, "We’re READY TO FLY, but first I warn you: fly behind me in the middle air between heaven and earth, for if you fly in the lowest air near the sea, the feathers will become moist, but if on the other hand you fly in the uppermost air near heaven, the fire of the sun will melt the wax and burn the feathers. Don’t be TOO DARING IN FLYING! Be careful, my boy! Now follow me! We’re escaping our prison - We are free!
Having spoken these words, Daedalus with his son up flew upwards from the labyrinth, and no one noticed their escape except a shepherd, who looking up by chance saw them flying like big birds and supposed they were gods. Soon Daedalus and his son left Crete, but they didn’t fly the direct route to Athens in their homeland, but, delighted by their new freedom, began to fly in a big circle over the Aegean Sea. Looking down Icarus looked in wonder at the great number of islands: “Oh, how many small islands there are in the huge sea!” But Daedalus said, “Those islands are by no means small although they seem to be small. Certainly the island Melos, which is under us, isn’t as small as it seems to you.” Icarus: “But that island to our left looks a lot bigger to me. What island is that?” Daedalus: “It’s Peloponnesus, a part of Greece, and is not really an island, but a peninsula, for Peloponnesus is connected by a narrow piece of land, which is called an isthmus. Near the isthmus Corinth is situated, a most beautiful city, and not far off is Athens, our homeland.” “If we fly higher, we will see not only Greece, but almost the whole world”, said Icarus recklessly and flew still higher. From there he not only looked down marvelling at large parts of Europe and Asia, but also spotted the coast of Africa in the distance, then looked up above him at the sun shining in the clear sky. At once the boy, EAGER TO OBSERVE the sun closer, even though his father had warned him, rose to the top of the sky…
Here Quintus, who eagerly awaited the end of the story, asked: “What happed next?”
Syra: "What happened next was what was bound to happen: the fire of the nearby sun melted the wax, by which the feathers were joined together and attached, and burned the feathers. The terrified boy, waving his bare arms, fell into the sea and drowned, nor could his father bring help to him. That part of the Aegean Sea in which Icarus drowned is called 'the Icarium Sea’ after his name.
Likewise, the nearby island, on whose shore the body of the boy was found, even now is called ‘Icaria’. There you have the complete story of the reckless boy who, seeking freedom, found death. Now it is TIME TO SLEEP. Aren’t you tired FROM HEARING the long stories?
Quintus shook his head and said; “I’m not tired, and that story does not seem long to me. Out of all the stories, the one about the fall of Icarus pleases me most, even more than the one about the son of the Sun, who similarly, having tried to drive his father’s chariot, fell from highest heaven because he foolishly strayed from the path of the sun. I am always very DELIGHTED TO HEAR such tales.”
Syra: "No less do I enjoy telling these tales, not only because they seem to me beautiful in themselves, but also because the endings of the stories rightly warn reckless men. For such is the nature of men, and indeed especially of boys. The story of Daedalus and Icarus is told not only for the sake OF DELIGHTING but also OF WARNING, for what happened to that boy can happen to every boy, if he doesn’t obey his father. Don’t be like Icarus, my Quintus! Always be careful! But it’s hardly necessary for you to be warned by me after what happened to you yesterday. I’m sure that fall of yours warned you better than any story!”
With the boy warned by these words, Syra finally PUTS AN END TO STORY-TELLING. And Quintus does not call her back (as she is) leaving, but lies on his bed and closes his eyes. Soon the boy seems to himself in his dreams to be flying over mountains and rivers, equipped with wings.
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Cheers,
Int
I’d be happy to look over your LL translations as you do them. I’m pretty sure I have both my volumes around here… I’d kick in with the translations themselves, but I feel that the process of making them would be of greater aid to those earlier in their Latin studies.
Versiones Linguae Latinae nuper a vobis versas libenter perscutabor. Credo me utros libros alicubi juxtim habere… versiones etiam meas vobis addere vellem, sed molimen vertendi eis in latinitatem minus versatis magis prodesse arbitror, quam eis qui callidior, ut fatue credunt, linguam latinam insecuti sunt.
hi again
Thanks Interaxus and thesaurus for your help/advice. By the way Interaxus i only received ch 's 2 and 26 of ll. I have asked pullins (the publisher) if its ok to publish translations on text kit and they say it would be better not to publish them (following the wishes of Hans Orberg) since it might deter others from working through the materials for themselves and eventually to translate the book (in parts or entire) if they so wish. Being that thats the case i would rather if you dont publish any more ch’s on textkit .Its ok i think if you publish them in my private messages but since there is limited space there i would rather you send them to my email address if possible. (daniel.lane9@btinternet.com).
I will ask Ann tomorrow novi if she will help out with the project .If she agrees then we can start .You have the choice whether you want to translate from latin to english or viceversa or a mixture of both. My personal preference would by for both of us to do all the translating (despite the amount of work involved) .That way we get to meet all the grammar and vocab and ll becomes a complete course as it was designed to be.
Thanks again
little flower.
One thing is that I have not yet done most of the exercises.
Considering that Pullins does not want an English translation published, for me it might be more worthwhile to complete all the exercises (Pensa) in the main book and those in the Exercitia, which book I also have.
But if you still want to make a (private) English translation I will contribute as some sort of collaboration will encourage me. In fact I started translating chapter one today.
It would be very good if Ann is willing to check our work. As I said I am only up to chapter 25 so although not an absolute beginner, I’m not an advanced student either. You are much more advanced than me so at least initially I would rather translate into English.
Let me know what you think.
Hi again, little flower.
You mentioned translating back from the English to the Latin. Is your intention to gain practice in composing Latin?
If so retranslating a text which you have already studied in Latin would make that task easier.
Just that I have translated the first two pages of chapter one into English and it is, of course, very easy to translate being at the very beginning of the book.
But it strikes me that the learning or revision value is not so great considering the time it takes to type it out. I’m coming to the conclusion that Latin to English translation of such large amounts of text which we have already studied is not such a good use of time.
This is why I ask if you want practice in translating from English into Latin. If so, perhaps we could find a suitable book designed precisely for that purpose.
As I said before I have not done most of the exercises. It would be very helpful for me if you would be willing to check my attempted answers of the exercises. I would email my answers to you in a Word file, and checking them might provide some revision for you.
I hope to do all the exercises in Exercitia Latina Pars I also. I will start the exercises from chapter one of both books.
I really think that for just two people to translate Familia Romana would be too much work for too little gain. There are other ways in which we could revise, practise and learn more quickly.
Have you started studing book II, Roma Aeterna? I also have that book.
Let me know what you think.
hi again novi
I have spoken to Ann and she has given her blessing to the project with one proviso. She would like me to summarise each section in a couple of sentences to bulid up my comprehension skills and help with oral/written expression. As for your questions, its up to you whether you want to take the time to follow this manner of enquiry. I have been looking for methods to improve my grammar/vocabulary skills since i started with latin. The more i improve the more i seem to realise that i must keep challenging myself .I like the format of ll as it lends itself to immersion ;to translate a section from english to latin without looking at the original one must know a lot of rules and their application. This is also the Dowling approach even if one does not write everything out 200 times.
I have not started Vol 2 (roma aeterna) yet. I want to be more confident with vol’ one first .Maybe in 6 months or so depending on my progress. Tell me if you want to start and we can draw up a rough outline to follow.
I dont have any other email address at the moment Interaxus .If you cant email or send the files to my private messages just leave it. Thanks for your help.
best of luck.
litle flower.
Publishers! What wet blankets.
Anyway, stick with your Oerberg immersion plan. This man was an avid promoter of Lingua Latina duckings in his Textkit days - and listen to him now!
http://www.youtube.com/ScorpioMartianus
Cheers,
Int
Hi lttle flower,
I am still interested in collaboarating with you. If as Ann suggested we make summaries of the chapters, you could take my English summary and translate it into Latin which would be good practice for you as generally my summary would not be identical to yours.
Meanwhile I would also do the exercises which I have yet to do. Maybe you could email your chapter 1 after you have done it to clarify what you have in mind. (I have already sent you an email.)
In fact for me Familia Romana started out as extra revision. I studied the first two-thirds of D’Ooge’s Latin for Beginners but felt that I needed lots of carefully graded reading practice to consolidate all the morphology which I had studied.
Through Textkit I discovered Lingua Latina which is such a great course.
All the best,
nov.ialiste
I was looking for a Search to find his old posts. Did he have the same name here? I love his readings, they sound so natural.
Another question to little flower.
Do you have the book Colloquia Personarum with additional stories at the level of each Familia Romana chapter? These are very good practice to consolidate the material in Familia Romana. I transcribed the whole book Colloquia Personarum in longhand. I did each after transcribing the corresponding chapter in Familia Romana.
I found that transcribing and reading the Latin in my head at the same time:
a) helped consolidate the use of the Latin word order
b) greatly helps me remember whether a vowel is long or short. I think the physical act of writing the macron of a particular word a number of times while reading it in context really provides good consolidation.
There are also the stories Fabellae Latinae avalable at the Pullins website. I have not read these. The full texts are available as a Word file and there is another version of the text with many endings absent which the student can fill in as an exercise.