This posting is on reading Latin. I’m using the Smith revised edition of Teach Yourself Latin (Yeah, the binding split and there are loose pages.) It was okay until I came to the idea of “you only understand a Latin passage when you can come up with a translation.” Sorry, I have learned Dutch and German and gotten used to their word order (subordinate clauses, negative words and infinitives) and translation would be an impediment to mastery, not an aid.
So I’m asking what you would recommend to learn to master Latin besides translation. I learned Dutch word order by listening and responding to people speaking Dutch - I was in The Netherlands at the time and learned German from Dutch - there are very few differences. I can’t do that with Latin.
Latin For Beginners 
I study German too, and find that when I go back to german from the far less strict latin I SUCK!
I am ashamed to say that at one time I wrote “weil es war alles” :-\ 
:-X :-[
[quote author=albertde link=board=3;threadid=772;start=0#7737 date=1065373551]
It was okay until I came to the idea of “you only understand a Latin passage when you can come up with a translation.”
[/quote]
What does “… when you can come up with a translation”? Does this mean translating Latin into your native language?
I’m not as advanced as you are in Latin studies, but I should hope that when I get better at this, I will not have to translate Latin to English before “understanding” the meaning. I’m hoping to reach the point where I will automatically understand a passage because I’ve switched over to automatically “thinking” in Latin.
I think it would be helpful to participate in the Agora forum, where all discussions are in Latin (or Greek). It would be a good exercise for working towards automatically “thinking” in Latin.
What does “… when you can come up with a translation” mean? Does this mean translating Latin into your native language?
Yes, this leads to the idea that you should concentrate on always going back to your mother tongue (English for me) rather than trying to think in the language you are trying to learn. For example, if you know what pro and what sum mean, then you should be able to figure out what prosum means. This assumes that you really understand what pro means.
I have mastered French. Unless I am doing a translation into English for someone, the only time I use a French-English dictionary is when I am dealing with concrete concepts like the names of diseases, flora and fauna. So rather than look up in a French dictionary when I want to know what coqueluche means, I’ll look it up in my Robert-Cassels dictionary to see that it is whooping cough. If it relates to an abstract concept, I’ll use my Robert dictionary and look it up. That’s what I want to be able to do in Latin.
I also want to be able to understand as (au fur et à mesure que) I read.
you can participate in several activities which will help.
- the agora, on these forums
- some software (like my “Learn Latin Now!”) has audio and even voice recognition so you can practice speaking
- schools which speak latin (there are several)
- finding a partner to practice with
It is unfortunate that both Latin and Greek still are taught in the now long abandoned methods of grammar, grammar, grammar, and translation. In the study of languages such as these, there are two Deadly Sins (some might be able to make up five more in order to make it Seven Deadly Sins). The first is reading silently. The Romans and the Greeks did not do it, and the practice of reading silently did not come about until well after Rome’s collapse. The second sin is that of “transverbalizing” or translating from Latin to whatever your native language is. You will never understand a Latin sentence if you read it silently and in translation.
There are ways to go about correcting yourself, so to speak, but it is extremely difficult. For some people, you will essentially have to unlearn all that you have learned. Knowledge can sometimes be an impediment.
[quote author=albertde link=board=3;threadid=772;start=0#7737 date=1065373551]
This posting is on reading Latin. I’m using the Smith revised edition of Teach Yourself Latin (Yeah, the binding split and there are loose pages.) It was okay until I came to the idea of “you only understand a Latin passage when you can come up with a translation.” Sorry, I have learned Dutch and German and gotten used to their word order (subordinate clauses, negative words and infinitives) and translation would be an impediment to mastery, not an aid.
So I’m asking what you would recommend to learn to master Latin besides translation. I learned Dutch word order by listening and responding to people speaking Dutch - I was in The Netherlands at the time and learned German from Dutch - there are very few differences. I can’t do that with Latin.
[/quote]
What I would recommend is to just choose a textbook and when it comes to translation exercises, don’t disregard them or think of how irritating this method is, but read the sentences as they are and figure out what the meanings are (not the words). Just read them as you would English, go through the steps for comprehending each word and you will have your meaning. It is still practical to translate, because otherwise you can’t really show anything to someone who doesn’t speak Latin, or have someone else look over your work.
OK, I had to look up “coqueluche” because I didn’t know what it meant. Here’s what Le Robert says (sorry about the formatting; it’s easier for me to cut/paste from the software than it is for me to transcribe from the book):
COQUELUCHE [kóklyf] n. f.
- 1. Anciennt. Capuchon que portaient les femmes. - Coqueluchon.
- 2. (Av. 1453; évolution de sens obscure : la maladie prend la tête du malade, mais la toux a pu être comparée au cri du coq). Cour. Maladie contagieuse, caractérisée par une toux convulsive. Enfant atteint de coqueluche. - Coquelucheux. Quintes de la coqueluche. Le bacillus pertussis, bacille de la coqueluche. Attraper, avoir la coqueluche. Vaccination contre la coqueluche. - Anticoquelucheux.
- 3. (1625; du sens 1; cf. être coiffé de qqn). Fig. être la coqueluche de… : être en vogue, faire l’objet des conversations, être aimé, admiré (dans un lieu, un milieu). - Favori, idole. Il est la coqueluche du pays : toutes les femmes en raffolent, en sont «coiffées».
Rare. Chose qui est l’objet d’un engouement.
DÉR. Coquelucheux, coqueluchon.
So basicially, it would be very nice if there was unilingual Latin dictionary like le Robert. Or does one already exist? And it would also be nice to have a unilingual Latin dictionary like Le Petit Larousse Illustré for the beginner Latin students.
I also want to be able to understand as (> au fur et à mesure que> ) I read.
au fur et à mesure is one of those phrases that doesn’t really translate well, you just have to understand the meaning. I see your point is that there are words and phrases in Latin that loses something when you try to translate it to some other language.
[quote author=Ioannes1985 link=board=3;threadid=772;start=0#7763 date=1065410423]
Unfortunately this transition does not occur. No matter how much you translate and how quickly you do translate, you won’t be any closer to understanding the sentence. You will merely be adept at producing a handicapped English (or Spanish, French, etc.) rendition which loses something from the original.[/quote]
Well, the best way to learn a language is by immersion, but we’re quite limited in places we can go to for Latin! 
[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=772;start=0#7767 date=1065416420]
but read the sentences as they are and figure out what the meanings are (not the words). Just read them as you would English, go through the steps for comprehending each word and you will have your meaning.[/quote]
I actually try to do this when I’m working out some of the exercises in my book. But that’s because I’m doing it on the bus without pen and paper to work things out, so it all gets done in my head. Reading these sentences seem to get easier. And it definitely helps when the sentences all contain vocabulary that has already been presented. 
Grammar grammar grammar is the way in which it must be done. And it works with those capable of handling it.
False false false! Conscious grammar has very little to do with sight-comprehension. The feeling that you have to get for a language to be able to really understand it comes from hearing and/or reading it. Memorizing Allen & Greenough’s probably won’t help you learn Latin any better, but practice and reading will (and speaking if you are able).
Ah well… guess we better work on that Time Machine!
I agree with Benissimus here. I speak English better than 99% of the people around me, but until last year, I never used a grammar book. I didn’t learn what conjugating a verb was until I started learning French, and I didn’t learn how to decline a noun until I started learning Latin! And yet, somehow, my English marks all come back almost twice as high as the nationwide average. Clearly, grammar is not essential to mastering a language.
The sound of Latin poetry (which, by the way, is also widely misunderstood and mistaught) is as very much important as the words of the sentence.
In what ways do you feel that Latin poetry is misunderstood and mistaught?
I know what you mean. I speak English as my native language, but I never formally learned English grammar. They just don’t teach English to us the same way they teach it to ESL students. I know ESL students who can tell me more about English grammar than I care to know! Yet there is a difference between how we speak. I have a better understanding of colloquial English, the use of idioms, and the “exceptions” in English come more naturally to me.
Hardly…because the language is no longer spoken naturally does not mean it is impossible for someone else to learn the language as it should be learned. There is no excuse for how Latin and Greek are taught except tradition and skepticism. It is a long and hard road to learn any language…few can just pick up on a language naturally. There are resources for achieving this, but it really depends on how much you wish to work for it.
http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/SubIndex/classics.lat.html
That is a good place to start with. That site is a great source of information and another perspective. The Professor Emeritus who runs the site even suggests a method for discontinuing the practice of translation.
There is also a series of textbooks written in an entirely different manner than Wheelock’s or Latin for Americans, etc.
http://users.cybercity.dk/~bbe6711/
That link is for a series of books written entirely in Latin for people wishing to learn Latin directly. From what I have seen of it, nothing is introduced via an English word. For example. instead of having regina defined as queen, the word is merely placed with a picture of a queen. After all, word association is a major part of learning any language. You will never understand a language if you must associate all of its words with words in another language. When you hear arbor you should not think tree but instead should immediately have the image of a tree come to mind.
Inevitably, if you really wish to learn to understand Roman literature, you will have to understand not only the written portion of the language but also the auditory portion as well. We know a great deal actually of what Latin (and Greek) sounded like at one point in time, regardless of what one might think about the languages being ceased to be naturally spoken. I am not suggesting you learn pronunciation solely for the fun of it…its required. Not a single text of Cicero, Livy, Catullus, Caesar, or certainly Horace, Ovid, and Vergil was intended to be read silently. Many works were intended to be read aloud. Vergil did not send copies of the Aenied to Augustus for the Emperor to look over…he came in person and read parts of the poem himself. The same can be said for the Greek language. Also, don’t forget, the practice of silent reading did not develop until long after the ancient world.
To sum it all up…if all you do is translate, you will miss the intended meaning of the written word. One only has to truly read a sentence of Livy to understand that common translations fail completely. In many sentences Livy places the reader in the scene as it appears to happen, and the very word order of the sentence is structured so that you become aware of things as if you were there witnessing the event. If you forget the audial portion of Latin, you miss out on the tremendous importance of sound. Latin poetry is not only full of written imagery, it is full of auditory imagery as well.
It is the hidden treasures of a language like Latin (and Greek as well) that make taking the time and effort more the worthwhile.
Grammar teaches you little of the true language in the end. What we call grammar is nothing more than carefully made observations about the usage of the language in some standard. For these observations there exist exceptions after exceptions. One could go through every grammar book that exists and still stumble upon reading that sentence of Livy dealing with the assasination of King Tarquinius Superbus.