How to Master Latin without Translation

You actually learned the grammar of English, but its not the same grammar as what can be found in a set of textbooks. You learned the living essence of the language through use. No one told you that you must add an -s at the end of the 3rd person singular form of verbs in the present tense. How do you know to do that? You just do because, generally, thats how most people speak.

Grammar is all fine and well - after you already have an understanding of the language. You can look back and realize things, but it does not work in reverse.

Where should I begin?

First of all, the practice of scansion is something that is drilled into students upon reaching Latin verse. It must be learned! Students are told they must first have to make out their long vowels, find their elisions (if they exist), and mark the shorts. The process can be rather tedious and in the end it is nothing more than a waste of time. You can scan the whole of the Aenied and you will not know how to read it.

Second, Latin poetry, just as with Greek poetry (more on that in a minute), is based as much on sound as it is on words if not more so. In many schools, the sound is completely disregarded…and in other venues of education, the idea is distorted. Students are commonly told that when a vowel or syllable is long it should be given more stress or pronounced more loudly. In reality, its merely a vowel which is pronounced longer. To quote Professor Harris:

Unfortunately many teachers substitute stress for length in reading Latin poetry, probably because English is a stress-oriented language and long vowels are not normally used. But if you are going to read Latin, you should read it as the Romans spoke it, and there is no questions about the fact that when they specified a vowel as LONG grammatically, they meant “L-O-N-G” acoustically. To read Latin with stress substituting for length is wrongheaded, it makes Vergil sound like something conjured up on a rocking-horse, and misses the real sound of Latin verse, which can be quite lovely.

In regards to Greek poetry…and Greek in general, the pitch accents are also distorted. The acute, circumflex, and grave accents do not indicate stress or intonation. They instead indicate a change in the pitch of the voice to a certain degree (rising for the acute, rising-stable-falling for the circumflex, and remaining generally the same for the grave. To either ignore the pitch accents or treat them differently than they were ruins the text. Try listening to parts of the Iliad without the accents, with the accents being stressed, and with the pitch accents being as they are. You will find that the result is completely different among the three.

Very useful insights Iohannes! I haven’t been consciously associating words with their concepts, although the words I am more familiar with I certainly do this with. I imagine that this is an important step towards comprehending Latin.

This course sounds great, and IIRC Moerus has also praised it.

You can order the second book in the series Roma Aeterna from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/8799701685/textkit-20/ref=nosim/102-5757143-4340909

You knew I was leading up to this, right? :wink:

I bet whoever introduced you to amazon.com feels guilty. :stuck_out_tongue:

They offer Lingua Latina: Familia Romana, Part I of the series, on Amazon.UK.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/8799701650/redirect-home/026-9377631-4545203?tag=textkgreekand-21&site=amazon

http://community.middlebury.edu/~harris/SubIndex/classics.lat.html >

That is a good place to start with. That site is a great source of information and another perspective. The Professor Emeritus who runs the site even suggests a method for discontinuing the practice of translation.

I’ve looked at this site before, but find his papers too difficult to read. There are just too many typos, particularly words run together, and some very odd uses of discourse markers made the argument difficult to follow.

It’s a shame, because I would probably agree with a lot of what he says.

Some comments (which he may have discussed in parts I didn’t get to) :

Most of the Latin we read is in a very artificial literary language, which the Romans themselves had to learn in school As I understand it, the difference between literary Latin and ordinary conversational Latin was much wider than that between literary English and ordinary conversational English.

We all learnt our native languages as children without having to study formal grammar. But it takes years of continual immersion for us to do so, and that’s when we’re at the peak of our language-learning ability before puberty. As adults most of us don’t have that sort of time to invest, we’re not so good at language-learning, and we have the interference from our native language to cope with.

The idea that we should learn a foreign written language as an adult in the same way that we learnt our first spoken language as babies and children is plausible but unfortunately it doesn’t work in practice. And I say this from 10 years’ experience of teaching EFL (English as a Foreign Language) and 7 years as a proofreader and editor for Indonesians writing in English.

I’m not saying the grammar-translation method is ideal and should be followed slavishly, but there is a place for it. At the very least, if you’re going to produce Latin or Greek you need to have some understanding of grammatical terms to discuss where you’ve gone wrong. And you will go wrong. If your teacher just says this should be sperarent not speraverunt without being able to say why that doesn’t help you in similar sentences. I have corrected many drafts from ‘suggest you to apply’ to ‘suggest you apply’, but until I tell my client that we don’t use the to form of the infinitive with suggest, they generally keep on doing it.

What works for one person isn’t necessarily going to work for everybody. Some people work best from explicit rules. Others work best by induction from examples without the rules being made explicit. For others again, which approach will work depends on the nature of the material.

Ultimately what counts for the most in any language-learning is exposure to the language. Read as much Latin or Greek as you can. If it works for you, supplement it by grammatical study and vocabulary lists. Just remember though that the grammar and vocabulary lists are tools to help you understand, they’re not ends in themselves.

Most of the Latin we read is in a very artificial literary language, which the Romans themselves had to learn in school As I understand it, the difference between literary Latin and ordinary conversational Latin was much wider than that between literary English and ordinary conversational English.

The differences between written and spoken Latin can be rather varied, but the variations only increase as you get closer and closer to our point in time. The language itself is not artificial - its the style of the language. There are differences, whether they seem apparent to us, between literary English and conversation English. There are even differences of style in literary English (some of which are rather difficult to understand even for educated people). We know for a fact that, regardless of the style, it was understood by the Romans and we know many works, some surviving but many lost, were recited in public. And regardless, we do possess some written forms of Latin that are rather close to the more colloquial forms of the language at the time (depending on the actual time period). Latin literature itself varies considerably, and one can spend years learning Ciceronian Latin and have to learn a completely new set of ideas for reading Plautus’s plays, which are considerably more in Latin with the spoken Latin of his day.

I’m not saying the grammar-translation method is ideal and should be followed slavishly, but there is a place for it. At the very least, if you’re going to produce Latin or Greek you need to have some understanding of grammatical terms to discuss where you’ve gone wrong. And you will go wrong. If your teacher just says this should be sperarent not speraverunt without being able to say why that doesn’t help you in similar sentences. I have corrected many drafts from ‘suggest you to apply’ to ‘suggest you apply’, but until I tell my client that we don’t use the to form of the infinitive with suggest, they generally keep on doing it.

Grammar does have its place, but not in the forefront. You do not learn to read a language by studying its grammar. You do not learn to write a language by studying its grammar. Grammar is nothing more than a set of observations about the language - nothing more and nothing less. And those “observations” hold true only to an extent. Exceptions are galore.

The point I have been trying to make is that by learning grammar and translating, you aren’t doing any reading at all. By translating we are doing nothing more than rendering one language within another - in this case either Latin or Greek into English. Languages by their nature are not entirely compatiable with one another. Something is always lost when one translates. The only understanding involved in translation comes from the English that is created. Therefore, you aren’t understanding the Latin or the Greek. You are looking at the original words, considering the sentence in pieces and not at all as it is presented to you. You pick out one word and translate it either as many examples have shown or as the dictionary has told you, and then you continue to do the same thing over and over again until you have every word picked out. Then, when it is all over, you combine what you have translated into one big mesh of an English sentence and then, only then, do you attempt to make sense of it. The only understanding you are achieving is in English and in terms of artificial “rules” of Latin or Greek grammar.

I have seen the fruits of years of nothing but Grammar study. I had a teacher in Latin unable to translate the first sentence of a letter of Cicero. The translation she eventually came up with after several minutes was, I feel, not in the same intention or feeling that Cicero meant.

The one reason anyone should ever desire to read Latin or Greek is for its literature, yet if all you are doing is translating from the original language to English, why bother learning at all? There are several classes and books on the classics “in translation.” If all I wanted to do was spend years learning Greek so that I might translate Plato’s The Republic, it would be better to just go out and buy a translation of the Republic from a bookstore, for doing the translation myself will in the end achieve very little. Knowing Greek grammar, piece by piece, won’t help me understand the language any better than reading an accepted translation of it.

Grammar is something to look back upon once you have already made the journey, so to speak.

I will say this in ending, however. It always gladens me to see people willing to learn and understand a subject such as Latin or Greek. They are truly treasures worth knowing, and my one hope is that people wishing to understand the Aenied, for example, as it was meant to be understood would seek to learn Latin as it is.

It occurred to me a little while ago that using a dictionary to figure out what a word means is more like defining a word with a thesaurus than actually finding its meaning. All dictionaries do is offer similar words (in a familiar language) and sometimes a VERY brief description if the concept is somewhat obscure.

Hey, don’t rush me! :wink: