p80
23-24
εἰ δίκαιος κρίναι τούτους τοὺς ἀδίκους λῃστούς, πολλοὶ ἂν κτανθεῖεν. τούτοις γὰρ ἡ τιμὴ οὐκ ἐστί, μόνη ἡ βία.
If a just man were to judge these unjust bandits, many would be killed. They do not have honour, only violence.
Syntax good.
I’d put δικαιος ανηρ. (And πολλοι δη … would be punchier.) ληστας not -ους.
κτανθεῖεν: Attic uses αποθνησκω for the passive of (απο)κτεινω. So αποθανοιεν.
III. after Hom., serving as Pass. to λεγ́ειν, hear oneself called, be called, like Lat. audire, εἴπερ ὄρθʼ ἀκούεις, Ζεῦ S.OT903 (cf. A.Ag.161); freq. with εὖ and κακῶς, κακῶς ἀ. ὑπό τινος to be ill spoken of by one; πρός τινος Hdt.7.16.α ́; περί τινος for a thing, Id.6.86.α ́; ἄμεινον, ἄριστα ἀ., Hdt.2.173, 8.93, cf. S.Ph.1313, Antipho 5.75, etc.
Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 54). Oxford: Clarendon Press.
I never remember seeing that usage, but I can’t say that now…
p56
16.
τὸν ἄργυρον λάβοντα τὸν μίκρον κλέπτην ὅμως οὐκ ἔτυψε ὁ φιλόσοφος
Although the little thief had seized the silver nevertheless the philosopher did not beat him.
τοιοῦτοι ἄνδρες οἷοι μὴ ἡσάμενοι χρημάτοις τοὺς πάσχοντας κακὰ ὁπλίτας ἐλυσάντο
Such men as did not take pleasure in money ransomed the hoplites who were suffering bad things.
(This one I have a lot of questions about, but I’ll wait for your responses)
τὴν ἀδήλφην τῆς κλοπῆς ἐγράψατο ἅτε εὑρὼν ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ τὸν στέφανον τὸν ληφθέντα ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ὁ ἄρχων τῆς νήσου.
The man who ruled the island indicted his sister for theft because he had found in his house the crown that had been taken from the shrine.
τὰ ἱερὰ ἄρτι σωθέντα ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ τοῦ καιομένου οἱ λῄστοι δεινοὶ ἔλαβον
The terrible bandits seized the offerings when they had just been saved from the shrine that was burning.
old ones:
p56
14
How about: ἡ ἐκκλησία τὴν τοῦ νεανίου βουλὴν ἐδέξατο ὥσπερ ὁπλίτην ἠδὴ γενόμενον (ἐκεῖνον)
The assembly accepted the young mans’ advice as if he had already become a hoplite.
I’m going to leave the particle in here because I’m trying to master the circumstantial particle. What kind of participle is this exactly? I had the ὡς originally because of the special sense ὡς can have with causal participles. Now, if I retain the participle, I see why it can’t remain nominative. In which case don’t I need a pronoun in order to notify the reader that I’m referring to the ‘young man’ and not the (I know its absurd) ‘advice’, or is the absurdity of the latter option enough to disqualify it? I suppose even a pronoun in the accusative could still refer to ‘it’, as in the ‘advice’… hmm… maybe its a bad sentence for Greek composition focusing on the participle because there is no clear way to separate subject and object in the participle phrase, and requires as you pointed out mwh a separate clause. Is there a way to signify the ownership of the ‘advice’ to the ‘young man’ that perhaps allows the latter to be put in the accusative, so as to allow it to agree with the participial phrase?
It feels like a stretch but mayve I can use a genitive absolute here?(ἡ ἐκκλησία τὴν τοῦ νεανίου βουλὴν ἐδέξατο ὥσπερ ὁπλίτου ἠδὴ γενόμενος)
15
ὅδε ὁ λῃστὴς δειλὸς κατέλιπε τοὺς ἑταίρους αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ νήσῳ ἐκφευξόμενος εἰς τὴν ἤπειρον
This cowardly bandit left his companions on the island so that he might escape to the mainland.
Again I’m leaving the participle in this one, in this case I took it to be what Dickey refers to as a ‘final’ participle. Is it in fact causal?
ἐὰν ὁ στράτηγος ἔχῃ εὐτυχίαν, τὰ τῶν στρατιώτων δόρατα βάλλουσι μόνον τοὺς πολεμίους οὐδὲ πολλάκις ἀμαρτάνουσιν.
If a general has good fortune, the soldiers’ spears strike only the enemy and do not miss often
thank you Barry, I think I originally had that and then for some reason changed it, upon seeing the singular in English
p80
23-24
εἰ δίκαιος ἀνὴρ κρίναι τούτους τοὺς ἀδίκους λῃστὰς, πολλοὶ δὴ ἂν ἀποθανοίεν. ἡ γὰρ τιμὴ οὐκ ἐστί αὐτοῖς, ἀλλὰ μόνον ἡ βία.
If a just man were to judge these unjust bandits, many would be killed. They do not have honour, only violence.
Hey guys,
Perhaps my last post was simply too big. Lets get back to basics. One sentence at a time is more than enough space for me to learn from you guys.
So here we go, I’m trying to turn a piece of common English into idiomatic Greek. I found this blurb somewhere on the internet, and thought I’d try to translate it. Its about 5 sentences, but I’m just starting with the first sentence today.
A brave attempt but the first part won’t do. For one thing, ὃς needs a finite verb.
For “would certainly also have been killed, had he not been saved by his sister” try εφονευθη και αυτος αν (και αυτος = “himself too”), ει μη υπο της αδελφης εξεσωθη, Must be ει μη (not ου!), and εσώθη passive. Or ει μη η αδελφη αυτον εσωσεν.
2) so what was my main error, I can’t quite see it. Aren’t I trying to make a mixed contrafactual? “If he had not been saved by his sister (but he was), he would have died”?
was there anything else wrong with my genitive absolute at the start other than the lack of the finite verb? Should I be using a μεχρι επει επειδη εως etc?
For Electra, realising that he was in great danger, secretly sent the boy away to Strophius, his uncle and king of the Phocians; and there Orestes was brought up well with the king’s son Pylades, who quickly became his most steadfast friend.
For Electra, realising that he was in great danger, …
ἡ γὰρ Ἐλέκτρα αἰσθομένη μὴ αὐτὸν ἐν μεγάλῳ κινδύνῳ εἴη
Bad construction. You’ve used αισθομενη as if it meant “afraid,” but then αυτον is nonsensical. Should be acc.&participle, αἰσθομένη αὐτὸν οντα …. (and actually τον παιδα [not -ον!] should go here not later)
mwh
Thanks for your swift reply, amazing. I see why its so messy now, no need to complicate things when you can use a participle! Hows this construction work do you think?
It’s getting better.
ἀπέπεμψε κρυφὰ: adverbs usually precede their verbs.
ὅς βασιλεὺς τῶν Φοινίκων καὶ ὁ τοῦ Ὀρέστου πατράδελφος·
ην is needed if you’re using a relative clause. (It can’t be “understood”; nor could εστι in a relative clause.)
In the rest, ἔθρεψε should be passive, ετραφη.
γὲ τὸν βεβαιότατον φίλον ταχέως γιγνομένῳ: bad.
τον βεβ.φιλ. should be dative, predicate with γiγνομενῳ.
γιγνομένῳ should be aorist.
Delete γε, or at least put it after βεβ.
Or better use red.clause: ος βεβαιοτατος των φιλων ταχεως εγενετο.
I have to say think you’d make more progress by translating the Eng-Gk, sentences and passages in a composition book such as North&Hillard. It may be more fun to try your hand at free composition, but to be honest I don’t think you’re quite far enough along for that just yet.
ok duly noted. I’ll go back to posting composition exercises from textbooks for a few weeks, and just add a few of these here and there for the fun of it? It is so much more fun, but you’re probably right that, since its not testing specifics I get lost too quickly.
After the murder of Agamemnon, his son, a boy named Orestes, would certainly also have been put to death, had he not been saved by his sister. For Electra, realising that he was in great danger, secretly sent the boy away to Strophius, his uncle and king of the Phocians; and there Orestes was brought up well with the king’s son Pylades, who quickly became his most steadfast friend.
I wasn’t correcting your accents, but αποθανόντος is a 2nd (aka strong) aorist participle: the accent comes after the stem, not ahead of it: αποθανών, -όντος etc. Similarly ειπών, εὑρών, and hundreds more. This is worth learning.
You correctly made γε postpositive, as all enclitics are. (Ιt’s not needed here however.)
κρυφὰ > κρύφα (like μάλα). And better προς τον Στροφιον than plain dative.
There are more important things here that I didn’t comment on, since we were focussing on the conditional.
ὁ υἱὸς ὅς παῖς ἦν Ὀρέστης ὀνομαζόμενος means “the son who was a boy in the process of being named Orestes.” You could sαy ὁ υιος αυτου, παις (ὼν) ονομα Ορεστης (ονομα acc., meaning “by name”).
αν δη won’t do. αν is a light particle that can’t be strengthened by δη. And as a postpositive it would sit more comfortably after αυτος or ἐφονεύθη.
It’s a bad papyrological habit of mine not to bother adding many accents and breathings, but you probably shouldn’’t follow my example, or not until you’ve mastered them.
I did have ὄνομα Ὀρέστης ἔχων at one point but wasn’t sure that “being by name Orestes” was good Greek. Could this construction work the same as παῖς ὼν ὄνομα Ὀρέστης? If so I’d like to go with something that was ‘my idea’, you know? I did suspect ὀνομαζόμενος however because the LSJ strictly defines that as ‘being called by name’, and not appropriate, but I couldn’t find any other suitable verbs, and I’m not sure why I was fixated on that information being in verb form.
I have been working extra hard on morphology lately, I will make sure I have some strong aorists in the mix so that I master those.
Lately I’ve been combing Smyth and arriving at some flashcards to drill those Syntax and Grammar habits deep. Plus I’m aiming to do both translation and composition daily from both K&R and Dickey. I’m looking into North&Hillard (thanks mwh).
I just want to say, you guys are amazing for putting time into helping others with their Greek. I can’t afford a tutor and the corrections you make are invaluable.
The most important thing in your latest revision is the position of the postpositive αν, see my previous.
Also important is bedwere’s correction of your αὑτὸς (a typo on your part perhaps?)
And βασιλέως should have the article, τοῦ βασ.
(Particle use and word order and some other things are also unsatisfactory, but I won’t go into those.)
Electra frequently reminded her brother by messengers of the necessity to take vengeance on his father’s murderers: ‘For,’ she said, ‘if you return to Argos and kill Clytemnestra and Aegisthus, you will not only act justly, but will also save the state and all its citizens; but if you don’t do this, no one will any longer believe that you are a true son of your father Agamemnon.’
διὰ ἀγγέλων (σὺν ἀγγέλοις means in the company of messengers)
I don’t like τῆς ἀνάγκης λαμβάνειν. I think λαμβάνειν should have a subject (or put it passive) and I would have used ἀνάγκην εἶναι or ὅτι ἀνάγκη ἐστὶ/εἴη
μὴ μόνον δικαίως ποιῇς etc. should be οὐ μόνον δικαίως ποιήσεις etc. (future, not subjunctive)
ἐπανέρχῃ I’d use the aorist subjunctive or, better, the aorist participle.
ἐὰν μέντοι (order)
ποιῇς I’d use the aorist subjunctive.
πείθω in the active voice means “to persuade”. You need to use the middle/passive voice to mean “to believe” or find another verb.
It should also take the infinitive, not the participle.
