Composition

Greek Learning Greek
41

mwh
-ok so could you say και δη is a flavour thing?
-re word order and the high point; gotcha I guess I’ll just have to keep composing in Greek!

ok heres todays sentences:

22-23
τοῦ γέροντος ἀποθνῄσκοντος νέκρος τὸ αὐτοῦ σῶμα γενήσεται. ἐὰν δὴ μὴ καίῃ τὸν νέκρον ὄρνιθοι καὶ θηροὶ ἔδονται.

When the old man dies, his body will become a corpse. If it is not burned, birds and wild animals will eat the corpse.

24-25
ἐὰν διὰ τῆσδε τῆς ὕλης τὴν νύκτα ὁ στράτος πορεύηται, πόλλους στρατιώτας θῆρες τρώσουσιν. θῆρας γὰρ μεγάλους καὶ ἀγρίους ἡ γῆ ἐνταῦθα φύει.

If the army marches through this forest during the night, wild animals will wound many soldiers. the land here produces big and savage wild animals.

I’m going to work on two more sentences, and will try to post them today as well seeing as I didn’t do any yesterday.

Regards,
EM.

42

Slimsne here with your daily dose of Greek composition. You’re welcome.

I decided to do a few extra today because I missed yesterday. These ones are from Chapter 7.

11
ὁ παδίος ἂν μὴ ἔκλεψεν τὰ χρήματα εἰ ὁ γέρων αὐτὰ ἄλλοθι ἔκρυψεν

The little boy would not have stolen the money if the old man had hidden it elsewhere.

12
εἱ τὸ ἀδηλφῆς ὄνομα πάλιν ἐπιλανθάνεται· αὐτὸν ἀναμιμνῄσκου ἰδίᾳ

If he forgets his sisters name again, remind him privately.

καὶ εἰ πολλὴν ἡμέραν κινδύνῳ ἐτάχθησαν, οὔποτε ἀπέθρεξαν οἱ ἀνδρεῖοι Ἕλληνες.

Even if they were stationed in danger for many days, courageous Greeks never ran away.

14-15
καὶ τὸν χείμονα πολλαὶ τέχναι ἰδίᾳ ἄν εἴη μανθάνειν (or just μανθάνοι?)σώφρων νεανῖα. καίπερ δὲ εὖ ἀκούων ὅδε σώφρων οὐκ ἐστιν.

A prudent young man would be learning many arts privately during the winter too. This man, although he is well spoken of, is not prudent.

ἐὰν ὁ στράτηγος ἔχοι εὐτύχην, τὰ στρατιώτων δόρατα βάλλουσι μόνον τὸν πολέμιον καὶ πολλάκις οὐκ ἀμαρτάνουσιν.

If a general has good fortune, the soldiers’ spears strike only the enemy and do not miss often.


I know. It’s a bit much. But I’m on a roll.
Peace.
SLMSN

43

You are not on a roll. Do no more until you’ve recognized your mistakes (which others can point out) and learned from them.

44

Of course that’s going to help, but just as one of the keys to being a good writer in your own language is to be a good reader, so reading lots of Greek is going to be the best support for your composition. Others hopefully will offer specific corrections, but pay special attention to your verb forms and particularly subject-verb agreement.

45

:blush:

46

This is what I see in sentence 11:
παδίος? perhaps ὁ μικρός παῖς.
(ὁ παδίος ἂν μὴ ἔκλεψεν τὰ χρήματα)I believe we should have οὐ in the apodosis. Perhaps ὁ μικρὸς παῖς οὐκ ἔκλεψεν ἄν τὰ χρήματα,

47

I had a little extra time, so I took a look at sentence 12:

I believe this is a future more vivid condition, so you’d want ἐάν + subj., then the imperative.
Also, shouldn’t “τὸ ἀδηλφῆς ὄνομα” be “τὸ τῆς ἀδελφῆς ὄνομα”?

48

Or παιδίον. Classically attested as well as a common NT word. Diminutives are regularly neuter.

49

Definitely better than “ὁ μικρὸς παῖς”. I was trying to stick with Dickey’s vocabulary, which only has παῖς, It was difficult ignoring the modern diminutives “παιδάκι” and in my wife’s dialect “παιδόπον”.

50

So if I want to keep the diminutive I have to make it accusative? How would that work?

SLMSN

51

I’m reading bits and pieces, some oratory, a few pieces from Anabasis. Nothing whole as yet. Should I give the Iliad a go?

SLMSN

52
  • Of course, thanks Aetos.
  • This one really stumped me for some reason, I can see clearly now that its a FMV.
  • And yes, its ‘his sister’

so How about:
12
ἐὰν τὸ τῆς ἀδηλφῆς ὄνομα πάλιν ἐπιλανθάνηται· αὐτὸν ἀναμιμνῄσκου ἰδίᾳ

Thank you Aetos

SLMSN

53

At issue here of course is how to handle conditionals. Aetos’ correction of ἂν μὴ ἔκλεψεν to οὐκ ἔκλεψεν ἄν shows two key things:

  1. The negative should be ου(κ) not μη. That’s always the case when the main clause has αν. (If-clauses, on the other hand, are aways negatived with μη.)
  2. αν is postpositive, it cannot stand first in a phrase. It’s barely possible after το παιδιον (here nom. not acc.) but would much more naturally go next to the verb. Aetos puts it after εκλεψεν. It could also come directly after ου(κ); ουκ αν is a very common collocation.

Incidentally there’s a stickied thread on conditionals near the top of this board, which may possibly be useful.

[PS on 12, επιλανθανομαι normally takes gen. not acc.]

54

It’s past my bedtime, but I want to say thanks, mwh for looking at the corrections. I was so focused on the absence of the article and the misspelling of ἀδελφή, that I completely forgot that ἐπιλανθάνομαι takes the genitive! D’oh!

55

Not accusative, neuter. You might want to review 2nd declension neuters.

56

No, for now, stick with Attic prose.

57

There’s a lot of sentences we haven’t dealt with yet.

22-23
τοῦ γέροντος ἀποθνῄσκοντος νέκρος τὸ αὐτοῦ σῶμα γενήσεται. ἐὰν δὴ μὴ καίῃ τὸν νέκρον ὄρνιθοι καὶ θηροὶ ἔδονται.
When the old man dies, his body will become a corpse. If it is not burned, birds and wild animals will eat the corpse.

  • τοῦ γέροντος ἀποθνῄσκοντος means “while the old man is dying”. You want aorist, αποθανοντος. This is important.
  • τὸ αὐτοῦ σῶμα: order should be το σωμα αυτου.
  • ἐὰν δὴ μὴ καίῃ is active. You want the passsive, εαν δε μη καυθῃ (aor.pass.); and connective δε is sufficient.
  • ὄρνιθοι καὶ θηροὶ: ορνιθες κ. θηρες. (Not all nouns are 2nd decl.!)

Other points on the others:
12, an additional point on word order: ἰδίᾳ should come in front of the verb. That’s the usual position for adverbs.

13-14, Syntax good, but “for many days” should of course be plural, πολλας ημερας.

14-15
καὶ τὸν χείμονα πολλαὶ τέχναι ἰδίᾳ ἄν εἴη μανθάνειν (or just μανθάνοι?)σώφρων νεανῖα. καίπερ δὲ εὖ ἀκούων ὅδε σώφρων οὐκ ἐστιν.
A prudent young man would be learning many arts privately during the winter too. This man, although he is well spoken of, is not prudent.

The most important points here are:

  • “would be learning” needs imperfect indic. w/ αν: εμανθανεν αν. Again, see the preceding thread on conditionals.
  • “many arts” is the direct object, πολλας τεχνας. (And νεανῖα should be νεανίας, nom.sing.)

ἐὰν ὁ στράτηγος ἔχοι εὐτύχην, τὰ στρατιώτων δόρατα βάλλουσι μόνον τὸν πολέμιον καὶ πολλάκις οὐκ ἀμαρτάνουσιν.
If a general has good fortune, the soldiers’ spears strike only the enemy and do not miss often.

  • ἐὰν … ἔχοι is an abomination! You mean ἔχῃ.
  • εὐτύχην a non-word: ευτυχίαν (or αγαθην τυχην).
  • τὰ στρατιώτων δόρατα: needs an article with στρατιωτων too: τα των …
  • πολλάκις οὐκ ἀμαρτάνουσιν means “often don’t miss”. For “don’t often” you want ου πολλακις αμ.

All in all, you’ve got a lot right, but you should go over all this with care and understand where you went wrong so that you don’t repeat the same mistakes. Ask if anything puzzles you.

As for the Iliad, Homeric syntax is quite different from Attic and subsequent Greek when it comes to verb constructions, so I agree with Barry you should hold off for now if you don’t want to confuse yourself. But reading in the orators and Xenophon will greatly benefit you. Just make sure you understand the syntax.

58

Hi all,

so,

22-23
τοῦ γέροντος ἀποθάνοντος νέκρος τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ γενήσεται. ἐὰν δὲ μὴ καύθῃ τὸν νέκρον ὄρνιθες καὶ θηρὲς ἔδονται.
When the old man dies, his body will become a corpse. If it is not burned, birds and wild animals will eat the corpse.

-re: the aorist genitive absolute, is this because of the aspectual qualities of the aorist?

14-15
καὶ τὸν χείμονα πολλὰς τέχνας ἄν ἰδίᾳ ἐμάνθανεν σώφρων νεανίας. καίπερ δὲ εὖ ἀκούων ὅδε σώφρων οὐκ ἐστιν.
A prudent young man would be learning many arts privately during the winter too. This man, although he is well spoken of, is not prudent.

ἐὰν ὁ στράτηγος ἔχῃ εὐτυχίαν, τὰ τῶν στρατιώτων δόρατα βάλλουσι μόνον τὸν πολέμιον καὶ οὐ πολλάκις ἀμαρτάνουσιν.
If a general has good fortune, the soldiers’ spears strike only the enemy and do not miss often

Once again thank you for the time you have taken to correct these. I need to spend some time revising a few things, third declension nouns, sequence of tense, etc…

any comments on this one?:
24-25
ἐὰν διὰ τῆσδε τῆς ὕλης τὴν νύκτα ὁ στράτος πορεύηται, πόλλους στρατιώτας θῆρες τρώσουσιν. θῆρας γὰρ μεγάλους καὶ ἀγρίους ἡ γῆ ἐνταῦθα φύει.

If the army marches through this forest during the night, wild animals will wound many soldiers. the land here produces big and savage wild animals.

Some more if anyone still has an appetite;

p80
23-24
εἰ δίκαιος κρίναι τούτους τοὺς ἀδίκους λῃστούς, πολλοὶ ἂν κτανθεῖεν. τούτοις γὰρ ἡ τιμὴ οὐκ ἐστί, μόνη ἡ βία.

If a just man were to judge these unjust bandits, many would be killed. They do not have honour, only violence.


p56
14
ἡ ἐκκλησία τὴν τοῦ νεανίου βουλὴν ἐδέξαντο ὡς ὁπλίτης ἠδὴ γενόμενος ἐκεῖνος

The assembly accepted the young mans’ advice as if he had already become a hoplite.


15
ὅδε ὁ δειλὸς λῃστὴς ἔλιπε τοὺς ἑταίρους αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ νήσῳ φευξόμενος εἰς τὴν ἤπειρον

This cowardly bandit left his companions on the island so that he might escape to the mainland.

59

22-23
τοῦ γέροντος ἀποθάνοντος νέκρος τὸ σῶμα αὐτοῦ γενήσεται. ἐὰν δὲ μὴ καύθῃ τὸν νέκρον ὄρνιθες καὶ θηρὲς ἔδονται.
When the old man dies, his body will become a corpse. If it is not burned, birds and wild animals will eat the corpse.

-re: the aorist genitive absolute, is this because of the aspectual qualities of the aorist?

No, it’s temporal. He won’t be a corpse until he dies.

  1. ουδε better than και ου (which is not actually wrong).

Selective comments on the newer ones:

p56
14
ἡ ἐκκλησία τὴν τοῦ νεανίου βουλὴν ἐδέξαντο ὡς ὁπλίτης ἠδὴ γενόμενος ἐκεῖνος
The assembly accepted the young mans’ advice as if he had already become a hoplite.

εδεξατο sing.
ὡς ὁπλίτης ἠδὴ γενόμενος ἐκεῖνος: Shouldn’t be nom., since it’s only a participial phrase and the sentence already has a subject. You could use ὡς ει (“as if”), w/ a finite verb (i.e. a clause as opposed to a phrase): ωσει οπλιτης ηδη εγενετο. No need for ekeinos.

15
ὅδε ὁ δειλὸς λῃστὴς ἔλιπε τοὺς ἑταίρους αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ νήσῳ φευξόμενος εἰς τὴν ἤπειρον
This cowardly bandit left his companions on the island so that he might escape to the mainland.

Here and elsewhere you’d do well to use compounded verbs. E,g, here κατέλιπε, and εκφευξομενος. (And ιν’ εκφυγῃ better syntax, to make it explicitly purpose.)
And adjectives are sometimes better in predicative position rather than attributive. E.g. here ο ληστης δειλος. But it’s a subtle matter.

60

You are doing an excellent job of this. In addition to Michael’s sagacious comments:


I’m having trouble seeing how we get “well spoken of” out of εὖ ἀκούων?


ἐὰν ὁ στράτηγος ἔχῃ εὐτυχίαν, τὰ τῶν στρατιώτων δόρατα βάλλουσι μόνον τὸν πολέμιον καὶ οὐ πολλάκις ἀμαρτάνουσιν.
If a general has good fortune, the soldiers’ spears strike only the enemy and do not miss often

τὸν πολέμιον would mean one person, better τοὺς πολεμίους (I imagine he’d look rather like a porcupine when the soldiers are done).