I’ve opened a discussion thread for these lessons.
Any way the rest of the group wants to proceed is fine with me. I haven’t had time to think (or eat or sleep) lately-everything is happening at once.
I’ve been afk for some days.
I’ll be catching up with everything. You’ve posted lots of useful and nice materials. I’ll check the separate thread regularly and contribute with my stuff if suited.
I like Athenaze. I think it makes for excellent side practice or a fresh way to approach the subject, and yet I’m afraid it can be misleading. After few chapters people must realize it takes a lot more work and commitment than expected, no new method can replace memorizing and long sessions on inflection and conjugation exercises. Not to mention Chapters 9 and 10, honestly if we hadn’t already worked on them we would never manage to process and master them in a couple of months. 
I hope everyone had a great Christmas holiday. I was in Bangkok sick with stomach flu and fever over Christmas, but I’m back in Israel now feeling much better - as illustrated by my being awake at 2am on Textkit (just like the old days!). I’m looking forward to the New Year and my 35th birthday in the upcoming week and a half, both of which I’ll be spending on long-haul flights to and from New York City. No mistletoe for me!
Anyway, I hope that you feel refreshed after the holiday and not overcome with stress and regret (from eating too much!). It’s my hope that we can go ahead and get 9β finished up, compared, and discussed - because 10 is going to be pretty tough, and we have a lot to talk about there before even posting our translations.
I agree with Bruna that Athenaze sneaks some tough memorization pieces into the next chapter, especially for those of us who come from a κοινή background (in which grammar was actually simplified in many aspects - for example: βλέπω > βλέψω, not βλέψομαι and -ίζω verbs becoming -ίσω instead of -ιῶ in the future; cf. Athenaze pp. 158-159). So, we need to really look at the future tense forms given in chapter 10 and commit them to memory. I want to make a list to post on the helps thread and talk about how they are different from what we’d expect.
Why a question mark? This is fine.
Mind which keys you’re typing: σ is s; ς is w; υ is y; θ is u. You’re making a lot of typos in this regard. I won’t be pointing out these typos in the comments. I’ll leave them bold and expect that you know which keys you should have hit instead. 
οἶκον is accusative. We need a directional adjective, which is οἴκαδε (“to the house”).
You mean ξένος (“stranger”) instead of κενός (“empty”).
I’m also pretty sure that οπα is a typo for ὁρᾷ (“he sees”).
This verb (ὁρᾷ) takes an accusative object: τοὺς παῖδας. You’ve written παῖδας correctly but used the dative article in the feminine (ταῖς).
The participle should also be in the accusative (τρέχοντας – and *τπεχοντες is a typo for τρέχοντες).
I’m sure that the π in *αγορπαν is a type for ἀγοράν.
What does your (w) mean?
Excellent. You used the genitive for the personal object after ἀκούω.
Why did you make οὐδείς plural in the verb? It should be ἀκούει rather than ἀκούουσι. Is there a reason why you are leaving the -ου- out of the word?
ἀκούω, ἀκούεις, ἀκούει, ἀκούομεν, ἀκούετε, ἀκ> ού> ουσι(ν)
The two ακου-ουσι do not blend together into *ακουσι.
Everything is great except that ἐν is followed by the dative (ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ).
Just change ἀνδρείᾱν to ἀνδρεῖον, and you’ve got it. The word order is very English sounding, though. For example, μάλα should normally precede the adjective that it modifies (μάλα ἀνδρεῖον). In normal prose, we would also expect the object to proceed its verb (τὸν παῖδα τιμᾷ). Verbs also like to follow predicate adjectives (ἀνδρεῖον ὄντα). All of this together would rearrange the sentence pieces as: ὁ πατὴρ τὸν παῖδα τιμᾷ μάλα ἀνδρεῖον ὄντα.
I know that this is contradicted by Koiné structure (such as John 3.35 [ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ τὸν υιόν] and John 5.20 [ὁ γὰρ πατὴρ φιλεῖ τὸν υἱόν]), but we’re trying to learn Attic here and get away from the more English sounding order, right? The Koiné was certainly similar to Attic in so many ways, but it was generally more simplified and is more easily translatable to an English speaker’s mind. We need to start to feel how Greek is expressed in its own word order.
Do you spend much time reading the stories and getting used to the word order that is used in them? That is the best place to start! Also, look at the word order in sentences that you translate from Greek into English. Feel the words and how the order connects them; try not to translate one word at a time, but rather a phrase at a time or sentence at a time. Read them aloud as you work on them.
What do you think?
jaihare, let me do things in order, I hope you won’t get too bored.
First, my answers to your comments
brunapogliano wrote:
Exercise 9β
6. τὰς γυναῖκας λέγονταςThe noun (τὰς γυναῖκας) is feminine, so you should use the second-declension ending (-ουσα) rather than the third-declension one. In this case, the α is long (-ᾱς) and we would expect λεγούσας. Thus, λέγοντες is particularly masculine. Cf. ἀκούουσαι in your #9.
wow! I remember it didn’t sound well when I wrote it.
my only regret: having very little time I end up doing the exercises at first glance.
brunapogliano wrote:
Exercise 9γ
5. οἱ ἄνδρες θεῶνται τὴν παρθένον πρὸς τὴν πόλιν τρέχουσαν.
The men are watching the young woman running to the cityI also translated the participle here with -ing, since we think of the participle working in this way. However, in this case, the result is bad English. Wouldn’t you say that they watch the girl do something rather than doing something? Or, we might say “while she does something.” I’m going to change my sentence to read: “The men watch the girl as she runs to the city.” It sounds better this way in English.
it surely does, but Oxford says http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/watch_1. Verbs of perception are followed by to-inf. if the action is perceived from the beginning to the end; by verb-ing if the action is perceived only in part.
brunapogliano wrote:
Exercise 9δ
2. Do you see the young woman hurrying to the temple?
Ὁ ξένος ὁρᾷ τοὺς παῖδας εἰς τὴν ἀγορὰν τρέχοντεςCheck the case of τρέχοντες and how it relates to the nouns in this sentence.
τρέχοντας
By the way, this is second time that you’ve translated παρθένος as “young woman.” I’ve used “girl” in my translations, as if it were a synonym of κόρη. What age do you think of when you think of παρθένος?
If I remember well, you translated Young woman/women and I used girls in the first chapters, then I turned to Young woman thinking that girl sounds too colloquial in a translation from Greek. Though I made some attempts at informal register in CH 8.
to me a Young woman in ancient Greek was 15-20 years old.
brunapogliano wrote:
Exercise 9δ
3. Everybody hears the sausage-seller praising his wares
Οὐδεῖς ἀκούει τὴν παρθένον τὴν μητέρα καλοῦσανIs he “praising” his goods or “shouting out” and trying to draw attention to them? I took “hawking” from the answer key to the book some years ago. Thought it sounded good.
it does but I had never come across it.
The verb ἀκούω takes its object in the genitive if it is a person. It takes the accusative if it’s a non-person. Thus: ἀκούω τοῦ δεσπότου τὸν δοῦλον καλοῦντος. vs. ἀκούω τὴν τοῦ δούλου φωνήν. You should use the genitive with ἡ παρθένος here.
'course, and I know well too. But, then I …
You’ve missed the verb “waiting” in the second sentence here.
I’m afraid I did, said the queen
I assume you’ve combined μάλα with καλήν to produce “beautiful.”
yep
finally, thank you for your comments, work, time and help. You wrote I had done a very nice work that week; not so nice judging from my mistakes.
I’ll be back with the new exercises
So, here is my version of Lesson 9 exercise epsilon, and zeta, part one. Are we more or less on the same page? In reference to the new year: 1. Thanks to everybody for your help & patience, and : 2. My new Year’s resolution is to learn to use the accents, etc. correctly! I’m glad we started this group & hope we can all continue . Happy 2015!
ATHENAZE LESSON 9 Part 2
Exercise 9ε
In each of the following phrases put the noun and adjectives into the correct forms to agree with the article.
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αἱ (μακρός) (ναῦς)
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τοῦ (καλός) (ἄστυ)
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τῶν (μέγας) (βασιλεύς)
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τῷ (μέγας) (βοῦς)
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τῆς (μέγας) (πόλις)
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τοῖς (μέγας) (ἄστυ)
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(πᾶς) τῶν (ναῦς)
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τὴν (πᾶς) (πόλις)
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τοῖς (ἰσχυρός) (βοῦς)
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τῇ (μικρός) (πόλις)
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τοῦ (μέγας) (βασιλεύς)
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τὰς (μέγιστος) (ναῦς)
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οἱ (μέγας) (βοῦς)
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τὸν (σοφός) (βασιλεύς)
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Νηες μακροι
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Αστεως καλου
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Βασιλεων μεγαλων
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Βοι μεγαλω
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Πολου μεγαλου.
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Αστεσι μεγαλοις
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Ωαεων παντων
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Πολιν παντα
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Βοθσι ισχυροις
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Πολει μικρω
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Βασιλεως μεγαλου
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Ωαθς μεγαλα
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Βοες μεγαλα
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Βασιλεα σοφον
Exercise 9ζ Part One
Translate the following:
- τί ἐστι τὸ τοῦ ξένου ὄνομα;
- ὁ βασιλεὺς δέχεται τὸν τῶν Ἀθηναίων ἄγγελον.
- ἀφικνούμεθα εἰς τὸν τοῦ πατρὸς ἀγρόν.
- ὁ παῖς κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν βαζίζων τῆς τοῦ πατρὸς χειρὸς ἔχεται.
- οἱ πολῖται τοῦ ἀγγέλου ἀκούουσι βουλόμενοι γιγνώσκειν τοὺς τοῦ βασιλέως λόγους (words/proposals).
Exercise 9 zeta Part one
- What is the stranger’s name?
- The king receives the messenger of the Athenians.
- We have arrived into our father’s field.
- The child walking along the road is holding the (his) father’s hand.
- The citizens who listen to the messenger are wishing to learn the proposals of the king.
Knocked down with flu. This is what I’ve managed to put together.
Exercise 9ε
In each of the following phrases put the noun and adjectives into the correct forms to agree with the article.
- αἱ μακραὶ νῆες
- τοῦ καλοῦ ἀστέως
- τῶν μεγάλων βασιλέων
- τῷ μεγάλῳ βοΐ
- τῆς μεγάλης πόλεως
- τοῖς μεγάλοις ἄστεσι
- πασῶν τῶν νεῶν
- τὴν πᾶσαν πόλιν
- τοῖς ἰσχυροῖς βουσίν
- τῇ μικρᾷ πόλει
- τοῦ μεγάλου βασιλέως
- τὰς μεγίσταις ναυσίν
- οἱ μεγάλοι βόες
- τὸν σοφόν βασιλέα
Exercise 9ζ
- What is the name of the foreigner / the foreigner’s name?
- The king receives the messanger of the Athenians / the Athenians’ messanger
- We arrive at our father’s field
- The boy, walking down the street, holds onto his father’s hand
- The citizens are listening to the messenger as they want to know the king’s words / proposals
- Ἀκούομεν τοὺς τοῦ ἀγγέλου λόγους
- Βαδίζω πρὸς τὸν τοῦ ποιετοῦ οἶκον
- Τὸν τῆς παρθένου πατέρα ζητοῦσιν
- Ἡ μήτηρ τῆς παρθένου δακρυούσης ἀκούει καὶ ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου σπευδει
- Οἱ πολῖται τοῦ ἀγγέλου λαμβάνονται καὶ αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν βασιλέα ἄγουσιν
- Πολλαὶ τῶν γυναικῶν πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ βαίνειν βούλονται μετὰ τῶν ἀνδρῶν
ὦ φίλοι,
I just wanted to let you know that I can’t make any comparisons right now. I’m in Manhattan today on my birthday (35 years old! YIKES!), and I won’t be back to Tel Aviv until Tuesday. Because of my birthday this weekend, I didn’t bring any books with me at all.
Without looking, does this mean that you guys are caught up? Or, do we have a bit more to do before going on to chapter 10?
Latest from the sofa:
Exercise 9η
- The father orders the boy to remain in the town; but he (the boy) does not obey him
- Some (of the) citizens are returning home, others remain watching the procession
- Some (of the) girls remain by the fountain, others are already returning home with their mothers
- The young women who are carrying the baskets are beautiful
- The men who are watching the dances rejoyce much
- Do you see the men who are working in the field?
- Your friends want to learn the affairs of the ciy
- The young men who are hurrying to the field intend to help their father
- Don’t tell me this; for you do not know the affairs of the city
- All the present generation honour the men who love the city
- Your friends want to know (learn) what justice is
- The women in the house are talking (to one another) about beauty
- Save the men in the ship, because they are in (very) great danger
Exercise 9θ
Translate into Greek:
- Ὁ μὲν Εὐρύλοχος τὰ γιγνόμενα ὁρῶν φεύγει καὶ πρὸς τὴν ναῦν τρέχει
- Ἐγὼ δὲ τὰ πᾶντα ἀκούων πρὸς τὴν τῆς Κίρκης οἰκίαν ἔρχομαι τοὺς ἑταίρους σῴζειν βουλόμενος
- Ἡ οὖν Κίρκή μοι σῖτον καὶ οἶνον παρέχει• ἔπειτα δὴ τῇ ῥάβδῴ με πλήττουσα κελεύει εἰς τοὺς συφεοὺς ἔρχεσθαι
- Ἀλλ’ἐγὼ σῦς οὐ γίγνομαι, ἡ δὲ μάλα φοβουμένη τοὺς ἑταίρους λύειν ἐθέλει
I’ll start working on Ch. 10 on my own, so I will have something to post (hopefully) when the thread is open.
Have a nice week, I hope I’ll have a week better than the last I’ve had.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY 
I am @ 1/2 through Lesson Nine-I’ll post it this week & then be ready for Lesson 10. And Happy Birthday! Did you go to Manhattan just for your birthday?
I fly to Manhattan quite regularly. I’ve got two more flights to NYC this month. I’m a flight attendant, so I get to fly all the time.
What gender is ναῦς? The adjective should agree with it. In the exercise, it is written as “αἱ (μακρός) (ναῦς).” It gives us the gender as well as the word order that they want us to use. In this case, the answer is: αἱ μακραὶ νῆες (nominative plural, feminine).
All the forms are correct. Just note that you should have used the word order provided in the exercise: 2. τοῦ καλοῦ ἄστεως. 3. τῶν μεγάλων βασιλέων. 4. τῷ μεγάλῳ βοΐ.
Check the genitive singular form of πόλις.
Correct forms. Word order according to exercise.
Did you mean πασων (πασῶν) instead of Ωαεων? That involves two typos: (1) Ω for Π and (2) ε for σ.
πάντα is masculine accusative singular or neuter nom/acc plural. What is feminine accusative singular?
Typo: θ for υ. Correct forms.
Gender of πόλις?
Correct forms.
Ωαθς is presumably a typo for Ναῦς. Notice that the adjective provided is μέγιστος rather than μέγας. This means that we would expect: τὰς μεγίστᾱς ναῦς.
μεγάλα is neuter plural. βόες is masculine. What is the masculine plural of μέγας?
Correct forms.
Correct.
Notice that ἀφικνούμεθα is simply the present indicative. You should probably say “we are arriving” or “we arrive.” There is no perfective sense to the verb.
The participle in both of these sentences is circumstantial. It is not adjectival. That is, it is dependent on the main verb and not on the noun phrase. It’s not “the child [who is] walking” or “the citizens who are listening.” If that were the case, we would have a repetition of the article to attach it to the noun phrase (as with all attributive adjectives). Thus, we would expect: ὁ παῖς ὁ κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν βαδίζων “the child who is walking down the road” and οἱ πολῖται οἱ βουλόμενοι γιγνώσκειν… “the citizens who want to know…”
The circumstantial participle can be translated as “while” or “since.” That is, “the child holds his father’s hand while he walks down the road” and “the citizens listen to the messenger, since they want to know the king’s words.” It gives a reason for the main verbal phrase or another verb that accompanies the action in some way.
Do you see παῖς here more as his slave or his son? I took it as referring to his son, but it can surely be read either way. Have we been presented with υἱός yet in this text? It’s interesting how Greek had υἱός, δοῦλος and παῖς – and how these words overlapped in certain contexts.
No major critiques.
I like your use of τὰ γιγνόμενα here. I actually thought maybe my τί γίγνεται was no good, so I checked the answer key – and it has what I wrote. I like yours better, though! I think what keeps us from translating it like you did is the fact that we would probably expect an aorist participle here instead of ὁρῶν, and we haven’t yet covered the aorist participle of ὁράω, which is ἰδών. That is, he saw the things, and then he fled. Stilted gloss: Eurylochus, having seen the things happening, flees and runs to the ship. The seeing needs to be antecedent to the fleeing, hence the aorist participle. He didn’t flee while seeing but after seeing.
This is the second time in a row that I chose subordinate clauses with ἐπεί rather than participial phrases, whereas you have chosen to use participles. Again, I think it’s because we don’t have the aorist participle of ἀκούω – which is ἀκούσᾱς. That is, you didn’t go to the house while hearing but after hearing everything.
ἐγὼ δὲ πάντα ἀκούσας πρὸς τὴν τῆς Κίρκης οἰκίαν ἔρχομαι…
But I, after hearing everything, go to the house of Circe.
Do you see the difference?
The text seems to favor ἰέναι for “to go” rather than an infinitive based on ἔρχομαι. Is there a substantive difference between ἔπειτα δέ and ἔπειτα δή? Also, you cannot have two acutes together (ῥάβδῴ), even if the enclitic would like to give its accent to the preceding word. The accent simply disappears (τῇ ῥάβδῳ με πλήττουσα). To play with the enclitic, I changed the word order: πλήττουσά με τῇ ῥάβδῳ. Did she order the speaker to go into the pigsties (εἰς) or to the pigsties (πρός)? Do you see a difference in these prepositions?
Just fine. I reversed the order at the end from yours (ἐθέλει τοὺς ἑταίρους [μου] λύειν), but the sense is the same. I don’t think an emphatic ἐγώ pronoun is necessary here. It can (should?) be left out.
Regards,
Jason
CanadianGirl,
Should we wait for the last part of chapter 9 (that is, exercises 9ζ [the second part], 9η and 9θ) or go ahead and open up chapter 10α? I don’t want to push ahead if you’re not ready to move on.
Hope you’re staying warm. Have I yet mentioned that I hate winter?
Jason
Jason-I have the rest of 9 more or less done-i’ll try to post it this week & then I’ll be ready for 10. If you want to start on Lesson 10, I’ll catch up. I hope we can arrange it so that we are all working on the same lesson at the same time, but that seems hard to arrange! How many people do we have now? I hope Klewless can return. I appreciate your help!
Without Klewless, it’s you, me and Bruna.
Need to have a recruiting drive! Anybody wanna learn Greek? Seriously, I wonder if the people here at Textkit realize this project is under way? We might get some more to join. Anyway, I’m glad we are carrying on-I need it.
If you advertise and get people to join us, I’d be grateful! I can send a message to GreekStudy list and B-Greek, letting them know that we’re on chapter 10 and will be continuing on into book 2 once we get that far. Send invitations around to whomever you want and get people riled up!
I’m also glad that we’re moving forward. I want to know Attic better, and I think this is a good way to do to it.