Who wants to critique my translation (102 Gk. words)?

Greek Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
1

TLDR:

Here is the Greek text from Stephanus of Byzantium:
46 Ἰκόνιον· πόλις Λυκαονíας πρὸς τοῖς ὅροις τοῦ Ταúρου. φασì δ᾽ ὅτι ἦν τις Ἀννακóς, ὃς ἔζησεν ὑπὲρ τὰ τ ἔτη. τοὺς δὲ πέριξ μαντεúσασθαι, ἕως τíνος βιώσεσθαι. ἐδóθη δὲ χρησμóς, ὅτι τοúτου τελευτήσαντος πάντες διαφθαρήσονται. οἱ δὲ Φρύγες ἀκούσαντες ἐθρήνουν σφοδρῶς. ὅθεν καὶ παροιμíα. „τὸ ἐπὶ Ἀννακοῦ κλαύσειν“ ἐπὶ τῶν λίαν οἰκτιζομέων. γενομένου δὲ τοῦ κατακλυσμοῦ ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος πάντες διεφθάρησαν. ἀναξηρανθεíσης δὲ τῆς γῆς ὁ Ζεὺς ἐκέλευσε τῷ Προμηθεῖ καὶ τῇ Ἀθηνᾷ εἴδωλα ἀναπλάσαι ἐκ τοῦ πηλοῦ, καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τοὺς ἀνέμους ἐμφυσῆσαι πᾶσιν ἐκέλευσε καὶ ζῶντα ἀποτελέσαι. διὰ οὖν τὰς εἰκόνας ἐκεῖ διαγραφῆναι Ἰκόνιον κληθῆναι. καὶ ἔδει διὰ διφθόγγου. ὁ πολίτης Ἰκονιεύς.
– Billerbeck, Margarethe and Zubler, Christian, Stephani Byzantii Ethnica; Volumen II: Δ-Ι, (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2011), p. 276.
– Meinekii, Augusti, Stephani Byzantii: Ethnicorum, Quae Supersunt, (Berolini: Impensis G. Reimeri, 1849), pp. 329-330.

And here is my translation (edit, new):
46 Iconium (Konya): A city in Lycaonia at the foothills of the Taurus Mountains.
They say that there was a certain Annakos, who lived for over three hundred years. Those around him practiced divination, to find out how long his life would be. The oracle came back that when it would end, everyone would be destroyed. When the Phrygians heard that, they cried loudly.
That is where the proverb “crying for Annakos” comes from, used when someone laments a lot.
After the deluge of Deucalion happened, everyone was destroyed. Then, when the earth had dried up, Zeus ordered Prometheus and Athena to form images out of clay and, summoning the winds to breathe on/into all of them and so finished making them alive.
Because the icons were designed there, it is called Iconium. Therefore, it should have a diphthong.
The citizens are Iconians.

(For reference, here is the old translation discussed below:)
46 Iconium (Konya): A city in Lycaonia at the foothills of the Taurus Mountains.
It is said that there was a certain Annakos, who lived for over three hundred years. Those around him practiced divination, to find out how long his life would be. The oracle came back that when it would end, everyone would be destroyed. When the Phrygians heard that, they cried loudly.
That is where the proverb “crying for Annakos” comes from, used when someone laments a lot.
After the deluge of Deucalion happened, everyone was destroyed. Then, when the earth had dried up, Zeus ordered Prometheus and Athena to form idols out of clay and then he summoned the winds to breathe on all of them and so make them alive.
Because the icons were designed there, it is called Iconium. Therefore, you must have a diphthong.
The citizens are Iconians.

FYI, here is a modern German translation for reference:
46. Ikonion (Konya), Stadt in Lykaonien, an den Auslaufern des Tauros. Man erzahlt, es habe einen gewissen Annakos gegeben, der uber dreihundert Jahre gelebt habe. Die Leute aus seinem Umkreis hatten bei einem Orakel angefragt, wie lange er leben werde. Der Spruch lautete, sie wurden alle, sobald Annakos gestorben sei, zugrunde gehen. Als die Phryger dies vernahmen, erhoben sie heftiges Wehklagen. Daher auch der sprichwortliche Ausdruck “uber Annakos weinen”; auf jene an, die zu sehr jammerten. In der Sintflut, welche zur Zeit des Deukalion eingetreten war, kamen alle um. Nachdem die Erde wieder trocken geworden war, befahl Zeus dem Prometheus und der Athene, wiederum Gebilde aus Lehm zu formen; darauf rief er die Winde zu sich und befahl ihnen, allen einzublasen und sie zu Lebewesen zu machen. Weil also die Lehmfiguren dort entworfen worden seien, habe man Ikonion genannt. Und musste man mit Diphthong (d. h. Eikonion). Der Burger Ikonieer.
– Billerbeck, Margarethe and Zubler, Christian, Stephani Byzantii Ethnica, Volumen II: Δ-Ι, (Berlin: De Gruyter, 2011), p. 277.

Some background:
Though I’ve had a semester of Greek during my undergraduate, I haven’t much used it in the last couple of years. So, despite sometimes styling myself as a “Bible translator” (with my Hebrew being passable), my Greek is rather abysmal.
Now, for my Ph.D., I’m having to grapple with some Greek sources, for a few of those, I wasn’t able to track down an English translation (though I did find a German one), so… I’m “forced” to make my own.
The first texts I translated is the above fragment from Stephanus of Byzantium’s Ethnica.
I would appreciate any feedback you can give. :slight_smile:

Ps. I can share a link to download Meinekii’s Greek text in PDF if you’re interested (not sure I have that right yet as a new member), otherwise you can find it on archive(dot)org.

2

That’s quite interesting stuff. Here’s what I noticed (though I usually have plenty of errors myself):

προσκαλεσάμενος τοὺς ἀνέμους…ἐκέλευσε – The participle sets the stage for the main action of the sentence, which is the ἐκέλευσε

ἐμφυσῆσαι – I would have thought breathed into them, like in Genesis

ζῶντα ἀποτελέσαι – Sense of completion here, “finished them into living beings” or something

ἔδει διὰ διφθόγγου – It’s imperfect ἔδει, and he obviously doesn’t follow the rule. So I would guess it means “it formerly needed to be [written] with the diphthong”. Ie., it used to be written Ἐικόνιον.

3

A decent translation but it should be plainer, to better match the Greek.
E.g. Φασι “They say” not “It is said.” Etc. etc. Don’t change more than you have to to make it ordinary English.

τοúτου τελευτήσαντος not “when it would end” but “when this man died”

ειδωλα better ‘images” than “idols”

“make them alive” quite right, i.e. bring them to life, no more than that.
Likewise “breathe on” is right, not breathe into..

“Because the icons were designed there” That would require το before τας εικονας. It looks as if the passage is corrupt, unless you’ve miscopied it.

και ἔδει διὰ διφθόγγου means “and it should have (been written) with. diphthong.” εδει is regular for what should have been.

4

Thank you both, very helpful :slight_smile:

I’ll leave this up for another day or two (to see if anyone else would like to suggest something) and then post an updated translation in the comments here, just to make sure I implemented your suggestions correctly.

5

Thanks for setting me straight on εδει.

These are surprising though.

I would have assumed (and did assume) that a use of ἀποτελέω at the end of a several step process would take the normal meaning of complete.

Also, why “blow upon”? You seem very certain (“is right, not breathe into”) that there’s no room for the normal meaning for ἐμφυσάω. But from the context, the idea would seem to be to blow in and get the breath going, even if there is no relation to something like LXX Gen 2:7 (unlikely). And looking at the LSJ references for the “blow upon” gloss (all Semitic, 2 LXX and 1 NT usage), the strange LXX Ez 37.9 reference looks like the LSJ entry author didn’t even look at 37.10 with the “εἰσῆλθεν εἰς αὐτούς”.

6

FYI, I verified the quote: it is as it is.
As for suspected corruption, this passage is an ancient encyclopedic entry and it often uses short-hand phrases (I’ve translated some other entries too, stay tuned :wink: ). This is also why I’ve occasionally translated more elaborately than strictly necessary. See also the various (bracketed) clarifying glosses in the German translation.

7

Bram, Now that I look at the German translation I see that it too translates this as if there was a τὸ to govern διαγραφῆναι (“Weil also die Lehmfiguren dort entworfen worden seien, habe man Ikonion genannt”). But as it stands the sentence is ungrammatical and must be wrong. I’d expect Billerbeck’s edition to register that, perhaps in the app.crit. (e.g. “τὰς: τὸ τὰς debebat”).*
It’s a bad oversight if it doesn’t.

  • debebat is the Latin equivalent of εδει in the follow-up note in the Stephanus entry! No infinitive needed with it.
8

Billerbeck doesn’t discuss the absence of τὸ in the critical aparatus.
There is a reference to an article from F. Jacoby and the relationship of this entry to the Perseus saga (with some other tangential references), but that’s it.

Maybe it helps to know that Stephanus of Byzantium lived somewhere in the 6th century AD, so it’s pretty late Greek?

9

I see this story in Herodianus (de prosodia catholica) and a slightly fuller version in Περὶ ὀρθογραφίας (A. Lentz, Grammatici Graeci, vol. 3.2, Leipzig: Teubner, 1870 (repr. Hildesheim: Olms, 1965): 407-611. 3.2 pg. 499 line 10), which looks like it the source of the shorter version (notice the fuller “καὶ ἔδει διὰ διφθόγγου” explaining the καί):

τὸ δὲ Ἰκόνιον γέγονεν ἀπὸ τῆσδε τῆς αἰτίας. φασὶ γὰρ ὅτι ἦν Ναννακός ὃς ἔζησεν ὑπὲρ τὰ τριακόσια ἔτη. τοὺς δὲ πέριξ μαντεύσασθαι, ἕως τίνος βιώσεσθαι. ἐδόθη δὲ ὁ χρησμός, ὅτι τούτου τελευτήσαντος πάντες διαφθαρήσονται. οἱ δὲ Φρύγες ἀκούσαντες ἐθρήνουν σφοδρῶς. ὅθεν καὶ παροιμία «τὸ ἐπὶ Ναννακοῦ κλαύσειν» ἐπὶ τῶν λίαν οἰκτιζομένων. γενομένου δὲ κατακλυσμοῦ ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος πάντες διεφθάρησαν. ἀναξηρανθείσης γὰρ τῆς γῆς ὁ Ζεὺς ἐκέλευσε τῷ Προμηθεῖ καὶ τῇ Ἀθηνᾷ εἴδωλα ἀναπλάσαι ἐκ τοῦ πηλοῦ καὶ προσκαλεσάμενος τοὺς ἀνέμους ἐμφυσῆσαι πᾶσιν ἐκέλευσε καὶ ζῶντα ἀποτελέσαι. διὰ οὖν τὰς εἰκόνας ἐκεῖ διαγραφῆναι Ἰκόνιον ἐκλήθη. ἄλλοι δέ φασι γυναῖκα κατοικεῖν τὸν τόπον παράνομον, ἣ τοὺς ἐπιξενουμένους ἐκέλευσε συγγενέσθαι αὑτῇ καὶ μετὰ τὴν συνουσίαν ἀνῄρει, ἵνα μὴ ἡ ἀσέλγεια αὐτῆς ἐπιγνωσθῇ. Περσέα δὲ τὸν Δανάης ἐπὶ τοὺς τόπους ἀφικόμενον καὶ μέλλοντα ταὐτὰ πάσχειν δείξαντα τὸ τῆς Γοργοῦς πρόσωπον ἀπολιθῶσαι αὐτήν. τὴν δὲ εἰκόνα ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον διαμεῖναι λιθίνην, ἀφ’ ἧς αἰτίας καὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας τὴν πόλιν οὕτως ὠνόμασαν. καὶ ἔδει διὰ διφθόγγου, διὰ δὲ τοῦ ι γράφεται, ἐπειδὴ εὑρέθη ἡ ἀρχομένη συστελλομένη παρὰ Μενάνδρῳ.

Can the “τὰς εἰκόνας ἐκεῖ διαγραφῆναι” just imply that it’s a reported statement? (Like τὴν δὲ εἰκόνα ἐπὶ πολὺν χρόνον διαμεῖναι λιθίνην a bit after).

I assume Menander is some grammarian.

10

No, that ignores the δια, makes no sense.

Menander the New Com poet.

11

I was thinking something like διὰ οὖν τὰς εἰκόνας, [ὥς φασι] ἐκεῖ διαγραφῆναι, Ἰκόνιον ἐκλήθη. But maybe an author wouldn’t have dropped ὥς φασι. A copyist forgetting a τό is more likely, I suppose.

I believe that I understand the last sentence now. He is justifying the iota spelling because it’s found that way in Menander, not because some grammarian says it’s found that way. Here is a possible papyrus connection to the play he was thinking of:

You can see it here: https://papyri.uni-koeln.de/stueck/tm61474

12

Thank you again, and please keep the discussion going.
I’ve updated my translation in the original post above based on your suggestions. For now I’ve made no choice between breathing on/into.
If you have no further comments, I’ll be posting this on my website (https://floodstories.wordpress.com/) soon, with a mention of this forum.

More translations-help requests to come.

13

Joel, No, διὰ οὖν τὰς εἰκόνας, [ὥς φασι] ἐκεῖ διαγραφῆναι doesn’t help. Still makes no sense. And surely τὰς εἰκόνας is the subject of διαγραφῆναι. Loss of το before τας would have been easy. The only puzzle is why Billerbeck & co didn’t pick up on it.

Yes you seem to understand the last bit now. I see no indication in the papyrus of the quantity of the first syllable of Ικονιον, whether or not it’s verse (prima facie unlikely). I’d assume the Kórte ref is to the notice we’ve been looking at. But I haven’t checked anything, and am without books.

(Fun fact: I actually reviewed P.Kóln I, where this was first published.)

Bram, breathing on/into: I’d say “blow on” is more accurate than either. ἐμφυσῆσαι implies a bellows kind of action—a more graphic image than εμπνεω. Think Puff the magic dragon.

14

Yes on Körte, though it turns out to be yet another version of this, now with a τό: Διὰ τὸ οὖν τὰς εἰκόνας ἐκεῖσε γραφῆναι, ἐκλήθη Ἰκόνιον.

I thought that the γυνὴ παράνομος story was the most interesting bit here. A reverse Bluebeard story about a black widow killer that winds up with a “gynemorphic rock formation” similar to Lot’s wife.

15

The need for το was immediately obvious, and I’m glad to have it confirmed (though I thought it would come after the ουν not before it: evidently δια το was enough of a unit to postpone the ουν),

But what a rigmarole getting there! I don’t want to be dragged through anything like that again.