vowel length

Greek Learning Greek
1

Hi!

I have a question about vowel length in Greek. An example is a word ἀεί (‘always’), for which I found to have a long “a”, ie /a:e’i/ in John Williams White’s First Greek Book, but in others, eg on the page perseus, it doesn’t say that α is long. Another example is verb θύω, which according to JWW’s First Greek Book should be /thu:o:/, while perseus says its /thuo:/ (verb πράττω in JWW as /pra:tto:/). Which of these things is correct and which dictionary would be the best to use in order to know which vowel in a word is long or not?

2

The Liddell Scott Jones dictionary is the most reliable source of information about Greek words, but it takes some effort to learn how to use it, especially the on-line version. The Perseus word study tool is very unreliable.

Here is a link to the page on which you can type in a Greek word using the Latin alphabet, following the conventions shown as to diacriticals:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?redirect=true

You have to type everything exactly right, using the exact prescribed format for diacriticals, or you’ll get no response. Verbs must be in the first person singular present indicative active form, and nouns and adjectives in the nominative singular, and in the case of adjectives, masculine form. This can be very frustrating.

If you’re successful, you’ll get a choice among dictionaries–this is what you get when you search for ἀεί, entered as a)ei/:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=exact&lookup=a)ei%2F&lang=greek

Then click on LSJ to see the LSJ entry:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)ei%2F

There’s a list of various forms of the word in different dialects,. You want the standard Attic form, which is given in Item 2:

α_^ Att.

The line after the letter α indicates a long vowel and the French circumflex a short one. This means that the alpha can be either long or short in Attic.

The hard copy of the dictionary uses macrons and breves, but the on-line version uses _ for long vowels and ^ for short vowels, placed after the letter. If a vowel has a circumflex accent, there’s no need for _ because the vowel must be long.

For θύω (entered as qu/w), the situation is very complex:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dqu%2Fw1

Some forms have a short υ; others a long:

[υ_ in fut. and aor., υ^ in pf. Act. and Pass., and aor. Pass.; υ_ generally in pres. and impf., exc. in trisyll. cases of part., …]

πράττω sends you to πράσσω, the older and more general form:

πράττω ,
A.v. πράσσω.

and in that entry you will find:

[α_ by nature, as is shown by the Ion. form πρήσσω, and by the accent in πρᾶγμα, πρᾶξις, etc.]

In the on-line version, you have to hunt for the information, but it’s there.

3

Any dictionary worth its salt should do, although Liddell and Scott’s (“The Great Scott”) remains the standard. It will tell you that Homer has ἀεί thrice with short α, in Attic it has both lengths. Θύω is a little more complex (there are actually two different θύωs): LS says that υ is generally long in present and imperfect; it’s long in future and aorist, short in active and passive perfect and in passive aorist. This is the θύω meaning ‘to offer’; the other (‘to rage’) has always long υ. Πράττω/πράσσω will have long ᾱ, confirmed by the properispomenon of πρᾶγμα and πρᾶξις, and, moreover, of πρᾶγος.

EDIT Hylander beat me to this, but I let my message stay.

4

Πράττω/πράσσω will have long α, confirmed by the properispomenon of πραγμα and πραξις, and, moreover, of πραγος.

The existence of the -η- form is likely more telling than the accentuation, which is generally late.

5

Of course η is very conspicuous, as in Herodotus’ Ἁλικαρνησσός (although one does expect the suffix -ᾱσσός), but I have to slightly disagree here. We do have Herodian from the 2nd century CE (only a later epitome, but still), and there were scholars before him and accents in use for many centuries. If memory serves, the Alexandrians marked accents differently, e.g. ἄνθρωπος would have been ἀνθρὼπος, which is logically perfectly comprehensible (rising vs. falling syllables). We have good reason to think, I should argue, that the accent system/tradition we have is highly trustworthy.

6

The grave accent was often used in ancient verse texts to signal “no accent yet.” So the written systems may vary, but the accentuation itself was as old as the language.

7

I was using a bit http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?redirect=true page in order to find vowel length of certain words, but sometimes it is hard, or even no information about it. I believe that, if there is no information, then it means that certain vowel or vowels are all short. Am I right?

8

Why doens’t LSJ give the vowel length of ὑμεῖς?

9

Don’t forget the supplement! It will be there. In addition, you can deduce it from some cited forms like Boeotian οὐμές, Aeolian ὔμμες (ὔμ- equals compensatory lengthening in ὑ-) and forms like ὗμιν or ὗμας. Also s.u. ὑμές and ὑμέτερος the ῡ is marked.

Though few people will search for the length in a dictionary as it is mentioned in every grammar.

I thought you had left for good — but it’s good to see you back!

10

No I don’t think so. I’ve never properly investigated LSJ’s practice, but my impression is that they mark both long and short vowels, if the quantity is known for certain, e.g. revealed by meter. If it’s not, they say nothing. That often happens with “hidden” quantities, when two consonants follow the vowel, obscuring its quantity; I see they don’t mark α in ἄνθρωπος or βάλλω, for instance. (In fact hidden quantities can sometimes be inferred from other evidence, historical or comparative or morphological, and LSJ’s caution can seem excessive.) And of course they mark only α ι υ: no need to mark ε or ο, or η or ω. And in compounds and derivatives you sometimes have to look up the appropriate headword, e.g. for words starting with συν- you have to go to the σύν entry to find out that the υ is short.

With αει and θυω, as you’ve seen, it’s complex, but the information is there.

It may be that sometimes vowel quantities that should be marked are not. In ὑμεῖς, the fact that the υ of ὑμεῖς is marked as long in the Supplement suggests that the failure to mark it in the main dictionary was inadvertent, in which case the word’s lexicographical subordination to σύ (a questionable decision) may have played a part. Or it may not have been marked because the υ is not long in all the dialect forms of the word. It’s a marvel LSJ has so few inconsistencies.

11

During my brief time studying classical Greek, I have gotten the impression that there are as many pronunciation schemes as there are websites, CDs and text books to offer them.

12

How the Greeks may have pronounced the long vowels may be a subject open to discussion, but that vowel length existed is not. Greek poetry stuck to very rigid meters where vowel length (and consonant juncture) was preeminent, making it trivial to see for anyone who has read even a few lines of Homer.

13

Yes, in ancient Greek any given vowel was conceptually and perceptually either long or short. Its acoustic temporality—how long it actually was, as scientifically measured—will have been relative and will have varied according to a large number of factors. (The same goes for its pitch profile.)

This thread has been concerned with how and whether dictionaries mark short and long vowels, and situations where the vowel “quantity”—i.e. short or long?—is not apparent from the spelling alone (as in most cases it is, since the Greek alphabet in its developed form conveniently distinguished η from ε and ω from ο and diphthongs from simple vowels). Pronunciation schemes are a different matter. Some attempt to approximate ancient Greek values, with uncertain success, others don’t. What matters is to recognize the distinction between long vowels and short ones, which is fundamental to ancient Greek phonology. [It’s also important to distinguish vowels from syllables, whose quantity (or “weight”) is also regulated as long (heavy) or short (light). Syllable weight is what counts in Greek verse and much prose.]

If pronunciation is what you’re interested in, Leslie, W. Sidney Allen’s Vox Graeca (in English) is a good guide, and you’ll find much discussion on this site. Or you could start a thread of your own in this forum. You’ll get all sorts of replies (and blessedly none of them from me :slight_smile: ). Welcome to Textkit!