Vocative of MEUS: MI without ME

You are right. The vocative of the noun “oculus” is always “ocule” (with a short “e”). But the possessive adjective “meus” can have two forms in the vocative when it is masculine singular: “mi” and “meus”. “Meus” is a little bit more formal. “Deus” is an exceptional (or irregular) noun in that its vocative is generally “deus” and seldom “dee” (with some older writers—pre-classical— it is “dee”, though!). Put the two things together and you more often say “ô deus meus” (vocative), but “ô mi deus” is good, too! In all cases with masculine nouns in the vocative you say either “mi” or “meus”. But note that it is more usual to use vocative “meus” after the masculine noun and “mi” before it. So you usually say “ô mi domine” and “ô domine meus”.

Rectè dicis, canorcaerulecarotâclavoque. Semper “oculus” nomen vocativo casu “ocule” figuram (in “e” brevi terminantem) tenet. “Meus” autem adjectivum possessivum casu vocativo numeri singuli generis masculini duas figuras habet: “mi” atque “meus”. Aliquid formalior est figura “meus”. Inaequale nomen est “deus”, qui “deus” rarò “dee” figuram casu vocativo habet (apud nonnullos quidem “dee” vocativo scribitur! Non autem classicé sed priús!). Verbis conjunctis casu vocativo, “ô deus meus” saepiùs dicitur, sed bonum quoquè “ô mi deus”! Omnibus exemplis nominum casu vocativo, utrâ figurâ “mi” vel “meus” utamur. Cum “meus” adjectivo nomen masculinum numeri singuli succeditur, saepiùs quidem “meus” figuram dici notes; cum procedit adjectivum, “mi” figura frequentiùs se ostendit. Ergô dicere solemus ità: “ô mi domine” et “ô domine meus”.

Not so. As Swth\r says above (and Trimalchio), “Meus -a -um” is a Possessive Adjective, and is declined like any First and Second declension adjective (with the exception of the masculine singular vocative). So in the Masculine case it is MEUS (Nom), MI or MEUS (Voc), MEUM (Acc), MEI (Gen), MEO (Dat), MEO (Abl).
Ego (me mei mihi me) is the Personal Pronoun, declined EGO (Nom), ME (Acc), MEI (Gen), MIHI (Dat), ME (Abl).

Minimé. Ut suprà dicit Swth\r (et Trimalchio) adjectivum possessivum est “meus -a -um”, quod, vocativus casus separatim, sicut adjectivum primae secundaeque declinationis inflectitur.

Strictly speaking the Personal Pronoun “EGO” does not have a vocative. If you want to write a pychoanalytical drama where you have a character called “EGO” (representing the Freudian Ego, of course), keep his name indeclinable and address him vocatively as “Ô Ego”.

Astrictè dicere, “ego” Pronomen Personale casum vocativum non tenet. Si te dramatem psychoanalyticum scribere velis in quo in proscaenio appareat persona “Ego” nomine (quod ideam Freudianam demonstrat, certé), facias ut nomem indeclinabile sit et is “Ô Ego” vocativo casu appelletur.

My answers in RED

You are wellcome! Cheers!

Sorry, but I don’t agree, Swth\r. It would be correct to say “ô mi ocule” and “ô ocule meus” but not “ô meus oculus”.
Tuâ veniâ, Swth\r, tecum dissentio. Rectè dicemus “ô mi ocule” et “ô ocule meus”, sed perperàm “ô meus oculus”.

Perhaps you are right my friend. But I think that i have read this in a latin grammar. I will search it and I will tell you soon…

Thanks for the advice anyway

No problem, Swth\r. I hope you find the reference because that would interest me a lot.
Libenter, Swth\r. Locum a te inventurum iri spero, quià, te successo, id me valdè tenebit.

In Lewis-Short Lexicon it is said that the form “MI” is found even with plural nouns “MI HOMINES”, and even with feminine nouns “MI DONIMA, MI SOROR”…!!!
I never stop learning… It seems that your remark was very usefull!!! But I’m still searching for the reference mentioned before!

Absolutely, Swth\r. I’ve spent so much effort emphasizing that the word “meus” is an adjective applying to a masculine singular noun that I’ve been saying “mi” is masculine singular only, which is nonsense.
Sanê, Swth\r. Quantùm emphasin ad genus numerumque “meus” figurae adjectivi dabam, tantùm errabam in dicendo “mi” figuram masculinam solùm esse. Me stultum!

HEUREKA!!! It concerns EARLY latin, but I suppose it does not make it less interesting.

NOTE: This was not the book mentioned by me some posts above (and I know that, because I have never read the specific book)…

Check these links:
Charles Bennet: Syntax of early latin.

See also here, Eleanor Dickey, Latin forms of adress, From Plautus to Apuleius, especially end of page 223, begin of 224

Dear friend and “co-forumist” ADRIANUS,
I suppose it would be of great interest to you to read the following linguistic paper about addressing in LATIN: Richard Ashdowne, The Syntax of Address in Latin It is short in length and easy to be read, I suppose…

Salve, mi amice! (Or, perhaps, "meus amicus! :wink: )

Your sources are great! Very interesting, and it’s all more complicated than I thought. Thanks, Swth\r. My views were rather narrow, and the ironic thing is I imagined otherwise.
Bellissimos tuos fontes! Certè me tenent, qui rem multipliciorem esse ostendunt quàm putabam. Gratias tibi, Swth\r. Conspectus meus conclusior erat, et quod aliter credi ironicum est.

Uh, theres two conflicting answers here. Metrodorus says the above ‘the vocative is always meus unless the name
ends in -I(US) like TULLIUS where it becomes MI’'. However swth/r wrote the following:

It does not matter whether a noun ends in -(I)US or not! It can be of any declention!

Am i missing something?

Thanks.

Believe me, mine are even narrower than yours! But “γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος”!

Mi amice, aut credis aut non hoc, sed mea scientia de scribendo loquendoque Latine minor est tua. (Did I express myself correctly this way?)

Ave!

It is like I have already said, I am afraid; and I say this because the matter gets a little bit more complicated… Consider also this: most of the grammarians say that the VOCATIVE of MEUS is MI, and a few say that rarely MEUS can be found as VOCATIVE. What do you get from this rule? I personally think that MI is used with any vocative noun form, of any declension. I had once found (and have now linked above some other relative readings) that the form MEUS is used only with the NOMINATIVE (and of course in all other declensions but the 2nd, NOMINATIVE=VOCATIVE), but in addessing (people or things…), so it stands instead of VOCATIVE. Is it clearer to you now? I think that’s as far as I can help you. After reading also the above mentioned pages, I hope that you conclude to something. I did…

But you don’t have to worry about this one when writting Latin. You can always use the MI form in VOCATIVE and be correct. No need to “intefere” in the use of MEUS as VOCATIVE… The specific knowledge is only of academic value, needed mostly to scholars.

I repeat it to you: as I can see, you only need to understand the difference between using the EGO pronoun and the MEUS possessive pronoun, wich means to understand the difference in whole between the personal pronoun of any person and number, and the possesive pronouns of any person, number, gender and number of possessors…

Cheers!

Ive still got a question. You say MI is the vocative of MEUS and that MEUS can be used as the vocative according
to a few sources.

But is there any kind of rule at all about whether the person your addressings name ends in -IUS or can you
just interchange MEUS and MI at will depending on which source you listen to

Is there any relation to if the name ends in -IUS (TULLIUS) or are they interchangable if you are taking both
sources for granted. Metrodorus clearly said it had to do with whether the proper noun ended in -IUS.

Thanks.

As fas as my knowledge can go, I don’t know if there is a rule different from what I have already said and written. Perhaps I am missing something… In ALL latin grammars (that I have read, and I have not read everyone), nothing more is explained. Nowhere is said that MI form is used ONLY with names in -IUS, or in -US, or in general with substantives of the 2nd declension… As I understand, those are interpretations of this (unfortunately) “foggy” rule considering our problem… According to my perception, and according to my explanation of this rule, MI can be used with any substantive of any declension in VOCATIVE. MEUS can be used with NOMINATIVE. Remember that only 2nd declension in -(I)US has a distinct form for VOCATIVE SINGULAR. In PLURAL and in all other declensions’ SINGULAR the NOMINATIVE=the VOCATIVE, so (on my behalf at least) MI or MEUS could be used freely.

So, we have:

MI FILI (not MEUS FILI, nor MI FILIUS)
MI OCULE, or MEUS OCULUS (not MI OCULUS, nor MEUS OCULE)
because nominative and vocative differ from each other.

But:
MI PUER, or MEUS PUER (2nd decl. in -ER)
MI PATER,or MEUS PATER (3rd decl.)
MI EXERCITUS, or MEUS EXERCITUS (4th decl.)
because nominative=vocative in form.

Having looked at your sources, Swth\r, I don’t see them saying that. I see that “meus oculus” was used in early Latin for a vocative. There is also later evidence for “ô mi deus” “ô mi domine” and “ô domine meus” as being not unusual.
Sed id non dicunt fontes quos suprà citavisti, Swth\r.

No! Not at all! As I said, it is an interpretation of mine, in order to help our friend to get some more confidence… As it seems, any form can be used with anything… So there is no problem… We can use aither MI or MEUS, but I think using always MI is the easiest solution. But I think DEUS should not be in our discussion, because it has irregular VOCATIVE anyway. I have not read enough of original latin texts; could you cite for me some phrases “in loco” where types like “o domine meus” are found?

Thank you in advance!

Libenter, Swth\r. Ecce: http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q="domine+meus"&start=30&sa=N

et

Very intersting! But what about outside the Vulgate? For I saw almost all passages are frome there… The same with “popule meus”… Something more classical perhaps… :unamused:

You can’t find examples in the classical period (not that I know of). (I did say “later evidence” above.) The usage is common from Late to Modern Latin. In my opinion, it’s good latin.
Classicè non invenies (ut credo). (Suprà dixi recentiora esse vestigia.) Cotidiè dicitur constructio ab aevo sero usquè ad nos dies. Meâ sententiâ, bonum latinum est.

Post scriptum: Te rogare oblitus sum, Swth\r! Quid significat “γηράσκω ἀεὶ διδασκόμενος”?

Aren’t we at risk of confusing the learner here rather than clarifying? I’m confused about the point you’re trying to make here.

My sense is, blutoon’s problem is not grasping the grammatical concepts; as for applying them, it’s probably best to give one rule which is generally valid and stick with it, even if there may be exceptions in the Latin authors.