Various problems on translating and Campania

Latin Learning Latin
1

I am trying to translate:
Don’t let us suffer from the dry heat and the long drought, but save us from them.

So far, I have:
Non facias doleamus propter aestem aridam et propter sitem diuturnam, sed nos reservas…

And I completely stumble. Any help is appreciated.

Also, can someone please proof-read this text:
O Vulcane, Vulcane, o fili Iuno, o Vulcane, Vulcane, o deus ignis. Feras nobis, feras nobis, nobis feras calorem, o deus claudus, nobis feram calorem. Nobis feram calorem, et tibi damus animi piscus, piscum adoleamus pro gratia tua.

Does anyone know what happened on 23-25 August AD79- apart from the Plinian explosion? I want to find out the happenings of the people; what people were doing on those fateful days. I know a little about Julius Polybius the wealthy political baker, Stephanus the fuller, Celadus the gladiator etc. from the program “Pompeii- The Last Day”, on BBC1, but I’ve mostly forgotten it. Can anyone help me?

VOBIS GRATIAS AGO

2

I am trying to translate:
Don’t let us suffer from the dry heat and the long drought, but save us from them.

So far, I have:
Non facias doleamus propter aestem aridam et propter sitem diuturnam, sed nos reservas…

Using the present jussive subjunctive of facio to take a subjunctive is a rather forced (and surprising option). ne with the subjunctive is typically used of 1st and 3rd person prohibitions, rather than the 2nd person here. the much-loved noli will probably have to be invoked. doleo is quite a nice verb to employ. just for variance, i will go for adficio in the passive. propter does mean on account of, but with a verb such as doleo, a preposition such as ex seems (intuitively, so not necessarily correctly) morefitting. Hendiadys may be employed for the former of the two things, perhpas not for the latter. If not, a chiasmus could be created for the two using two pairs of nouns and adjectives, such as ‘ex aestus siccitate diuturnitateque sitis’, but i don’t much like siccitas, so forming a tricolon will probably be more attractive. the ‘from them’ will definitely need to be expressed, for it is the crucial twist.

stuff in brackets is cleary superfluous.

noli pati (or ne sis passa), (precamur, dea?), nos aestu (,nos) arido (=a substantive) (nos, quod maius est,) site diuturna adfici, sed a quibus nos serva.

=noli pati nos aestu nos arido nos site diuturna adfici, dea, sed a quibus, precamur, nos serva.

there are a million variants, depending upon style etc. the above is rather high-flown, as i imagined it addressed to a goddess as a plead of sorts. it’s unfortunate that there are two infinitives in it.

as regards this:

O Vulcane, Vulcane, o fili Iuno, o Vulcane, Vulcane, o deus ignis. Feras nobis, feras nobis, nobis feras calorem, o deus claudus, nobis feram calorem. Nobis feram calorem, et tibi damus animi piscus, piscum adoleamus pro gratia tua.

it’s pretty crazy. did you write it? is Iuno meant to be in the genitive (Iunonis)? I like claudus! (though it should be with the vocative -e inflection). Is ‘feram’ 1st pers. or is it rather the adj. with the verb understood from earlier? what is piscus? adoleamus is presumably hortatory subjunctive. ‘pro’ means more ‘in return for’, ‘in proportion to’ rather than ‘for’ in the sense of ‘because of’. is this what you intend?


~D

3

Oh dear, I am in trouble this time!!! :blush: :cry:

Yes- it should be o fili Iunionis

Claude—of course!

Feram??? No, that should definitely be feras.

Piscus??? That should be piscum (gen. pl. of fish- my 3rd declension is shaky)

Adoleamus… I intended to say “Let us burn fish for your sake”.

And pro is meant to mean “becuase of”.

And yes, I did write it. :blush: :cry:

4

i like the bizarre thing - it has a rather charming rhythm, reminiscent of some medieval latin chants. ‘adoleamus’ was right for ‘let’s burn’.
gen. pl. of piscis would be piscium.
Iunonis*

your mistakes are mostly down to typing, so not to worry: Romanum est errare!

~D

5

I like this! :sunglasses:

I’ll have to keep it in front of me as I start posting compositions, though. :blush:

  • Tim
6

Also, can anyone find an online copy of Pliny the Younger’s letters to Tacitus in Latin please? I specifically want the letters book 6, letters 16 and 20.

VOBIS GRATIAS AGO

7

letter 16:

C. PLINIUS TACITO SUO S.

(1) petis ut tibi avunculi mei exitum scribam, quo verius tradere posteris possis. Gratias ago; nam video morti eius si celebretur a te immortalem gloriam esse propositam. (2) Quamvis enim pulcherrimarum clade terrarum, ut populi ut urbes memorabili casu, quasi semper victurus occiderit, quamvis ipse plurima opera et mansura condiderit, multum tamen perpetuitati eius scriptorum tuorum aeternitas addet. (3) Equidem beatos puto, quibus deorum munere datum est aut facere scribenda aut scribere legenda, beatissimos vero quibus utrumque. Horum in numero avunculus meus et suis libris et tuis erit. Quo libentius suscipio, deposco etiam quod iniungis.

(4) Erat Miseni classemque imperio praesens regebat. Nonum Kal. Septembres hora fere septima mater mea indicat ei apparere nubem inusitata et magnitudine et specie. (5) Usus ille sole, mox frigida, gustaverat iacens studebatque; poscit soleas, ascendit locum ex quo maxime miraculum illud conspici poterat. Nubes - incertum procul intuentibus ex quo monte; Vesuvium fuisse postea cognitum est - oriebatur, cuius similitudinem et formam non alia magis arbor quam pinus expresserit. (6) Nam longissimo velut trunco elata in altum quibusdam ramis diffundebatur, credo quia recenti spiritu evecta, dein senescente eo destituta aut etiam pondere suo victa in latitudinem vanescebat, candida interdum, interdum sordida et maculosa prout terram cineremve sustulerat. (7) Magnum propiusque noscendum ut eruditissimo viro visum. Iubet liburnicam aptari; mihi si venire una vellem facit copiam; respondi studere me malle, et forte ipse quod scriberem dederat. (8) Egrediebatur domo; accipit codicillos Rectinae Tasci imminenti periculo exterritae - nam villa eius subiacebat, nec ulla nisi navibus fuga -: ut se tanto discrimini eriperet orabat. (9) Vertit ille consilium et quod studioso animo incohaverat obit maximo. Deducit quadriremes, ascendit ipse non Rectinae modo sed multis - erat enim frequens amoenitas orae - laturus auxilium. (10) Properat illuc unde alii fugiunt, rectumque cursum recta gubernacula in periculum tenet adeo solutus metu, ut omnes illius mali motus omnes figuras ut deprenderat oculis dictaret enotaretque.

(11) Iam navibus cinis incidebat, quo propius accederent, calidior et densior; iam pumices etiam nigrique et ambusti et fracti igne lapides; iam vadum subitum ruinaque montis litora obstantia. Cunctatus paulum an retro flecteret, mox gubernatori ut ita faceret monenti ‘Fortes’ inquit ‘fortuna iuvat: Pomponianum pete.’ (12) Stabiis erat diremptus sinu medio - nam sensim circumactis curvatisque litoribus mare infunditur -; ibi quamquam nondum periculo appropinquante, conspicuo tamen et cum cresceret proximo, sarcinas contulerat in naves, certus fugae si contrarius ventus resedisset. Quo tunc avunculus meus secundissimo invectus, complectitur trepidantem consolatur hortatur, utque timorem eius sua securitate leniret, deferri in balineum iubet; lotus accubat cenat, aut hilaris aut - quod aeque magnum - similis hilari. (13) Interim e Vesuvio monte pluribus locis latissimae flammae altaque incendia relucebant, quorum fulgor et claritas tenebris noctis excitabatur. Ille agrestium trepidatione ignes relictos desertasque villas per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat. Tum se quieti dedit et quievit verissimo quidem somno; nam meatus animae, qui illi propter amplitudinem corporis gravior et sonantior erat, ab iis qui limini obversabantur audiebatur. (14) Sed area ex qua diaeta adibatur ita iam cinere mixtisque pumicibus oppleta surrexerat, ut si longior in cubiculo mora, exitus negaretur. Excitatus procedit, seque Pomponiano ceterisque qui pervigilaverant reddit. (15) In commune consultant, intra tecta subsistant an in aperto vagentur. Nam crebris vastisque tremoribus tecta nutabant, et quasi emota sedibus suis nunc huc nunc illuc abire aut referri videbantur. (16) Sub dio rursus quamquam levium exesorumque pumicum casus metuebatur, quod tamen periculorum collatio elegit; et apud illum quidem ratio rationem, apud alios timorem timor vicit. Cervicalia capitibus imposita linteis constringunt; id munimentum adversus incidentia fuit. (17) Iam dies alibi, illic nox omnibus noctibus nigrior densiorque; quam tamen faces multae variaque lumina solvebant. Placuit egredi in litus, et ex proximo adspicere, ecquid iam mare admitteret; quod adhuc vastum et adversum permanebat. (18) Ibi super abiectum linteum recubans semel atque iterum frigidam aquam poposcit hausitque. Deinde flammae flammarumque praenuntius odor sulpuris alios in fugam vertunt, excitant illum. (19) Innitens servolis duobus assurrexit et statim concidit, ut ego colligo, crassiore caligine spiritu obstructo, clausoque stomacho qui illi natura invalidus et angustus et frequenter aestuans erat. (20) Ubi dies redditus - is ab eo quem novissime viderat tertius -, corpus inventum integrum illaesum opertumque ut fuerat indutus: habitus corporis quiescenti quam defuncto similior.

(21) Interim Miseni ego et mater - sed nihil ad historiam, nec tu aliud quam de exitu eius scire voluisti. Finem ergo faciam. (22) Unum adiciam, omnia me quibus interfueram quaeque statim, cum maxime vera memorantur, audieram, persecutum. Tu potissima excerpes; aliud est enim epistulam aliud historiam, aliud amico aliud omnibus scribere. Vale.

letter 20:

C. PLINIUS TACITO SUO S.

(1) Ais te adductum litteris quas exigenti tibi de morte avunculi mei scripsi, cupere cognoscere, quos ego Miseni relictus - id enim ingressus abruperam - non solum metus verum etiam casus pertulerim.

‘Quamquam animus meminisse horret, …
incipiam.’

(2) Profecto avunculo ipse reliquum tempus studiis - ideo enim remanseram - impendi; mox balineum cena somnus inquietus et brevis. (3) Praecesserat per multos dies tremor terrae, minus formidolosus quia Campaniae solitus; illa vero nocte ita invaluit, ut non moveri omnia sed verti crederentur. (4) Irrupit cubiculum meum mater; surgebam invicem, si quiesceret excitaturus. Resedimus in area domus, quae mare a tectis modico spatio dividebat. (5) Dubito, constantiam vocare an imprudentiam debeam - agebam enim duodevicensimum annum -: posco librum Titi Livi, et quasi per otium lego atque etiam ut coeperam excerpo. Ecce amicus avunculi qui nuper ad eum ex Hispania venerat, ut me et matrem sedentes, me vero etiam legentem videt, illius patientiam securitatem meam corripit. Nihilo segnius ego intentus in librum.

(6) Iam hora diei prima, et adhuc dubius et quasi languidus dies. Iam quassatis circumiacentibus tectis, quamquam in aperto loco, angusto tamen, magnus et certus ruinae metus. (7) Tum demum excedere oppido visum; sequitur vulgus attonitum, quodque in pavore simile prudentiae, alienum consilium suo praefert, ingentique agmine abeuntes premit et impellit. (8) Egressi tecta consistimus. Multa ibi miranda, multas formidines patimur. Nam vehicula quae produci iusseramus, quamquam in planissimo campo, in contrarias partes agebantur, ac ne lapidibus quidem fulta in eodem vestigio quiescebant. (9) Praeterea mare in se resorberi et tremore terrae quasi repelli videbamus. Certe processerat litus, multaque animalia maris siccis harenis detinebat. Ab altero latere nubes atra et horrenda, ignei spiritus tortis vibratisque discursibus rupta, in longas flammarum figuras dehiscebat; fulguribus illae et similes et maiores erant. (10) Tum vero idem ille ex Hispania amicus acrius et instantius ‘Si frater’ inquit ‘tuus, tuus avunculus vivit, vult esse vos salvos; si periit, superstites voluit. Proinde quid cessatis evadere?’ Respondimus non commissuros nos ut de salute illius incerti nostrae consuleremus. (11) Non moratus ultra proripit se effusoque cursu periculo aufertur. Nec multo post illa nubes descendere in terras, operire maria; cinxerat Capreas et absconderat, Miseni quod procurrit abstulerat. (12) Tum mater orare hortari iubere, quoquo modo fugerem; posse enim iuvenem, se et annis et corpore gravem bene morituram, si mihi causa mortis non fuisset. Ego contra salvum me nisi una non futurum; dein manum eius amplexus addere gradum cogo. Paret aegre incusatque se, quod me moretur.

(13) Iam cinis, adhuc tamen rarus. Respicio: densa caligo tergis imminebat, quae nos torrentis modo infusa terrae sequebatur. ‘Deflectamus’ inquam ‘dum videmus, ne in via strati comitantium turba in tenebris obteramur.’ (14) Vix consideramus, et nox - non qualis illunis aut nubila, sed qualis in locis clausis lumine exstincto. Audires ululatus feminarum, infantum quiritatus, clamores virorum; alii parentes alii liberos alii coniuges vocibus requirebant, vocibus noscitabant; hi suum casum, illi suorum miserabantur; erant qui metu mortis mortem precarentur; (15) multi ad deos manus tollere, plures nusquam iam deos ullos aeternamque illam et novissimam noctem mundo interpretabantur. Nec defuerunt qui fictis mentitisque terroribus vera pericula augerent. Aderant qui Miseni illud ruisse illud ardere falso sed credentibus nuntiabant. (16) Paulum reluxit, quod non dies nobis, sed adventantis ignis indicium videbatur. Et ignis quidem longius substitit; tenebrae rursus cinis rursus, multus et gravis. Hunc identidem assurgentes excutiebamus; operti alioqui atque etiam oblisi pondere essemus. (17) Possem gloriari non gemitum mihi, non vocem parum fortem in tantis periculis excidisse, nisi me cum omnibus, omnia mecum perire misero, magno tamen mortalitatis solacio credidissem.

(18) Tandem illa caligo tenuata quasi in fumum nebulamve discessit; mox dies verus; sol etiam effulsit, luridus tamen qualis esse cum deficit solet. Occursabant trepidantibus adhuc oculis mutata omnia altoque cinere tamquam nive obducta. (19) Regressi Misenum curatis utcumque corporibus suspensam dubiamque noctem spe ac metu exegimus. Metus praevalebat; nam et tremor terrae perseverabat, et plerique lymphati terrificis vaticinationibus et sua et aliena mala ludificabantur.

(20) Nobis tamen ne tunc quidem, quamquam et expertis periculum et exspectantibus, abeundi consilium, donec de avunculo nuntius.

Haec nequaquam historia digna non scripturus leges et tibi scilicet qui requisisti imputabis, si digna ne epistula quidem videbuntur. Vale.


~D

8

TIBI GRATIAS AGO, ALBEDIASPASON!

:laughing: Those are enormous letters! They look so easy to read in their English translations. I’ll get round to reading them sometime.

Those :sunglasses:'s are so awkward. Is it possible to disable smiley’s from one part of the text to another?

Thanks again, Whiteoctave. :wink:

9

Has anyone read BBC’s “Pompeii: The Last Day” book? Is it good on the profiles of the people who were caught in the eruption, such as Stephanus the greedy fuller or Modestus the baker who put 81 loaves in the oven before the eruption or the son of Caecilius the banker, who fled to England?

10

And what was that paint used in graffiti writing at Pompeii and how do you make it?

11

..It’s called dipinti. Would the Pompeiians have called it that?


CVRMIHINEMODICIT :cry:

12

OK, next chorus:

What? Another tremor? The few doors creak so loudly, the lamps swing, the cups toast themselves. The earth is rumbling very violently, the earth is rumbling violently. Oh how annoying and troublesome the tremors are. Troublesome tremors, I curse you, we curse you.

My translation:

Quid? Alius tremor? Valvae pauci stridant sic clare, lunercae huc illuc iactantur et calices se propinant. Terrra territ violenter multum, terra vehementissime trepidat. O, ut molesti incommidique tremores sunt. O tremores, vos exsecror, vos exsecramur.

13

the latin is nice.
a few points can be made, if you are interested. paucae strident surely for pauci stridant? sic means so in the sense of ‘thus’ rather than an emphatic sense, for which tam with the adverb is the best. clare can mean loudly, but is generally used of shrill or sonorous noises - it need not be changed if you like it. lunercae is alacking a verb, just having the preposition huc illuc, perhaps that’s a purposefully elliptic construction to highlight the chaos? the next sentence is nice; if rearranged to terra territ valded violenter, vehentissime trepidat terra,you have a nice alliterative and chiastic sentence, that perhaps underlines the commotion. the first o should perhaps be replaced by eheu (vel sim.), since o is typically used invocations (as you correctly use it in the second) rather than an exclamation of annoyance. also ut should be replaced by quam, for that is the ‘how’ of exclamatory clauses. incommodique for incommidique. the last sentence is nice.

~D

14

Have you tried reading Lytton Strachey’s ‘The Last Days of Pompei’? At one time, it was available in paperback in the Everyman series.

Hope this helps,

chrisb

15

Could someone proof read all of the below?

The next chorus commemorates the festival on the 24th of August, dedicated to Nemesis and Moira, two of the fates, goddesses of doom and revenge respectively (I think):

Do not revenge trouble our hearts, nor let doom loom ominously over the hills and mountains, O Fates, do not have us destroyed. O Fates, O Nemesis and Moira, do not tear us away from life, but preserve us. o nemesis and Moira, do not destroy us.

Noli ultio corda nostra concedere vexare, noli fatum super montes collesque malis omnibus concedere apparere, o Fata, noli praemature nos delere. O Fata, O Nemesis, O Moira noli nos scindere procul vita, sed servant nos. O Nemesis Moiraque, noli nos oblitterare.

How do you get a harp to sound like a lyre?

16

O magna dea Isis
Sana maritum Osiris
O magna dea vitae
O Isis, ipsa magna maga
Ea, quae est misericors
Concede Osirem nasci
Adiuta ad auroram Ram ascendere
Expergisceris, O Isis
Regina universae
Auro vestimus te
Electro decoramus te

Ornatrix! Ablua ac decora comam!

Nardo perungimus et murra illineris
Creta, carbone et ochra cutem tingint
Aqua a Nilo te lavint
Offerimus flores loti et turem tibi
Damus vestes sericas gemmeas
O Isis, cara mater
Regina solis Nilique
Illae quae purgat et expolit
Domina magici aeternitatisque
Maga divitiarum, gemmae, commercii
O Isis, fer nobis diem bonus

Pax Numerio Popido Celsino

From line 10 onwards, I use the ablative to denote the instrument of the pampering. I do not know if this is the correct usage. I await your corrections.

17

Sinfonia

Recitative: solo soprano 1
Praetero per Portam Forensae ad culmen collis. Sinus est tam suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelum caeruleum; omnia coruscant par sapphiro. Undae quae volvunt, quae olent par sali; o mare est tam tranquillum! Ex aquae haec veniunt pro palato delectationes, o quam delictatos sunt!

Aria: solo soprano 1
Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria sino Cumae. Mare nitet ita suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sino Cumae.

I can’t find the conjunction “like” in my dictionary… the one that corresponds to French “comme” and Spanish “como” (no accent). I’ve used par, but I’m not sure if it is correct. I’ve also used many accusatives of exclamation, but I don’t know if these usages are correct.

18

Recitative: solo tenor 1
E mari pisces varios et externos piscor, gustorum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibios piscor e mari. Conchae pro horti sunnt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, clams, squid, loligines, cammaros, eels, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitant, ubi se mare fit convulsa, iactatur sumat et est turbulenta. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor tibi. Da mihi capturam diei boni.
E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

The English words I couldn’t find on Perseus. I’m not sure how I should use qui in the last sentence.

19

Could someone find the Latin equivalent of these words please:
clams, squid, eels, like (the conjunction).

Did the Romans have interjections for displeasement? In the next duet, a wife constantly nags her husband, and the husband says something along the lines of “OK,OK” or “Alright, alright!”. What Latin word would be the equivalent of that?

20

“eel” is anguilla, -ae, the diminutive of anguis “snake”.

“like” is not a proper conjunction. There are several words for “as (if)”, but you will be rapped on the fingers if you mix “like” and “as” as we do in English. :stuck_out_tongue: quasi, velut, ut, quomodo and others can express this meaning with some differences in usage. pariter is a good word because you can say what the thing is similar to, “in the same manner (to), just the same (as)”.

I don’t know “squid” or “clam”, and I can’t find them on Perseus. If anyone used them, you know it has to be Pliny. They would probably be words of Greek origin.

Apparently the Greek word for “squid” is teuthis, so you could probably use that if you really want to. The Latin word lolligo, -ginis comes close, meaning “cuttlefish”.

aha! myax and musculus are used by Pliny to mean “mussel”. concha refers to various mollusks, including the oyster and scallop. Also, looking up one of the words you used, chema could mean “clam”.

Did the Romans have interjections for displeasement? In the next duet, a wife constantly nags her husband, and the husband says something along the lines of “OK,OK” or “Alright, alright!”. What Latin word would be the equivalent of that?

Well, they had a lot of interjections. The problem with looking those up is that the dictionaries use really archaic English words like “egad!”, “alackaday!”, and “forsooth!” to define them. Surely Episcopus can write you something to express disgust in Latin. There are always good old vae and (e)heu.