Using flashcards and a translation question - Free Shooter

Greek Learning Greek
1

I recently started Dr. Pharr’s grammar and have gotten to Lesson 10. As is my custom I created flashcards when needed, but expanded their use. I did this by not only having the primary vocabulary word, but by including other cognates that I found in the glossary at the back of the grammar. In particular, along with ὁ ἑκηβόλος I added ὁ ἑκατηβελέτης, ὁ ἑκατηβόλος, and ὁ ἕκατος. The definitions for these four words seem to be roughly the same, Free Shooter, or something like that. In this manner I can learn more words in a shorter time span and I am not asking, ‘Why four words for the same idea?’ I know that that sort of thing happens in languages.

Now for the translation question. “Free Shooter” means absolutely nothing to me. I shy away from using ‘Sniper’ with its modern connotations, but would ‘Marksman’ be acceptable?

Perhaps I just need to do more research on what a Free Shooter is.

2

I’ve always heard it as “farshooter.” It’s just ἑκάς (far) with βάλλω (throw, strike).

3

I am not asking, ‘Why four words for the same idea?’

But if you were, the answer would be Because they all scan differently.

Oddly enough, “free shooter,” if understood as someone who picks off his targets at will, may in fact come closer to the original lost-in-the-mists-of-time meaning than the conventional “far-shooter” that Manuel explains; from that point of view “marksman” might suit well enough. But “far-shooter” or “hitter from afar” is what it meant for Homer’s ancient readers, so it’s best to stick with that. As an archer, Apollo kills his victims at long range.

4

I recall reading this definition as well. However, the problem remains as ‘far shooter’ is just as obscure [to me] as ‘free shooter’ is.

5

The mention of ‘Homer’s ancient readers’ brings my problem sharply into focus. I am trying to produce a translation of the Greek to English exercises in Pharr’s grammar that is understood by present culture and similar to the ‘dynamic equivalence’ translation style of some current Biblical translations. Good English that is true to the essence of the Greek is what I am after.

6

Homer’s Greek is not ordinary Greek—so should it translated into ordinary English? How could that be “true to the essence of the Greek”?

As for “dynamic equivalence,” if “Apollo the far-shooter” is too obscure for you (though it’s no more obscure than the Homeric words were for ancient readers of Homer), you could reduce it to “Apollo the archer,” sacrificing the explicit image of long-range targeting and the fact that no human archer is given the term. Or you could modernize bows and arrows to guns and bullets and call him the marksman or the sharpshooter. But on that principle the crucifixion would become execution by lethal injection.

7

By “what it meant for Homer’s ancient readers,” I think that mwh may mean that is how people who lived hundreds of years after Homer understood the word.

The LSJ marks the far-shooting understanding as a later development: “(Understood by later writers as far-shooting (ἑκάς).)”

Homer’s first listeners (or maybe Greeks listening to the pre-Homeric versions) may have understood it as coming from ἑκών βάλλω. ‘Able to shoot [whatever he wants to hit].’

The D scholia seems to give both meanings. ἑκηβόλου: ἕκαθεν, ὅ ἐστι πόρρωθεν, βάλλοντος τὰ βέλη, εὐστόχου τοξότου. “ἑκηβόλου (gen.): Shooting the arrows ‘from afar,’ which is ‘from the distance,’ a precise archer.”

You mention ἑκατηβελέτης as well. Here is Frist on each:

ἑκατηβελέτης > Beiname des Apollon (A 75. Hes. Sc. 100, h. Ap. 157; überall im Gen. -έτᾱο); danach ἑκατηβελέτις (Theol. Ar.). — Entweder Zusammenbildung mit dem alten hoch stufigen Aorist von βάλλω (so s. v.) oder (besser) für *ἑκατη-βελής mit erweiterndem -της wie in αἰει-γενέτης für *αἰει-γενής usw. nach Muster von den Zusammenbildungen ἀκαλα-ρρεϝέ-της (> ἀκαλαρρείτης), νεπελ-ηγερέ-τα usw., vgl. Schwyzer 451f. Eine Zusammenbildung mit βάλλω ist jedenfalls das synonyme ἑκατη-βόλος, dor. -ᾱ- (ep. lyr. seit Il.).

Schon von dem alten mit ἑκη-βόλος verglichen und entweder wie dies als ‘ferntreffend’ oder als ‘mit hundert Geschossen’ erklärt. Gegen die letztgenannte Erklärung, die von Wackernagel IF 45, 314ff. (== Kl. Schr. 2, 1254ff.) empfohlen wird (er übersetzt etwas abweichend: ‘hunderte treffend’), ist u.a. einzuwenden, daß man als Vorderglied unbedingt ἑκατομ- erwartet hätte, vgl. besonders das alte ἑκατόμ-βη. Die begrifflich sehr naheliegende und kaum abzuweisende Gleischsetzung mit ἑκη-βόλος nötigt allerdings zu der Annahme, ἑκατη-βελέτης, -βόλος seien aus metrischen Rücksichten künstlich erweiterte “Streckformen”, evtl. unter Anlehnung an ἑκατόν. Eine dritte Möglichkeit wäre vielleicht, in ἑκατη-βόλος eine Kreuzung von ἑκη-βόλος und dem Apollonepithet Ἕκατος (Il.) zu sehen, das dann als Kürzung nicht von ἑκατη-βόλος sondern von ἑκη-βόλος zu gelten hätte (vgl. z.B. Ἵφι-τος für Ἰφι-κράτης, -κλῆς u.a.). Abzulehnen Bechtel Lex. S. v.: ἑκατη- ein altes Abstraktum auf -τᾱ. — Nach v. Wilamowitz Glaube 1, 325 sind Ἕκατος, Ἑκάτη aus einer kleinasiatischen Sprache geholt und von den Griechen zu ἑκατηβόλος, ἑκηβόλος volksetymologisch erweitert; gegen diese an sich überflüssige Annahme spricht u.a. das sicher grieschische ἑκά-εργος. — Weitere Lit. bei Schwyzer 439A.8, ausßerdem Kretschmer Glotta 18, 235f.


ἑκηβόλος> , böot. ϝεκαβόλος Beiname des Apollon, später auch der Artemis (S.), endlich auf verschiedene Gegenstände bezogen (poet. seit Il. sp. Prosa). — Davon das Abstraktum ἑκηβολίη, -α (E 54 im Plur.; Kall., Str. u.a.) und das denominative ἑκηβολέω (Max. Tyr.). In derselben Funktion auch ἑκηβελέτης (Orph. Fr. 297, 11; vgl. ἑκατηβελέτης).

Durch metrische Dehnung in der Kompositionsfuge für *ἑκᾰ-βόλος, in der Antike zu ἑκάς gezogen und als ‘fernschießend, -treffend, Ferntreffer’ gedeutet (so noch Belardi Doxa 3, 203f.), aber wie ἑκά-εργος eher zu ἑκών als ‘nach Belieben treffend, treffsicher’; ἑκηβολίη somit eig. ‘Treffsicherheit’, pl. ‘zielsichere Geschosse’, aber wahrscheinlich schon vom Verfasser des E 54 als ‘Fernschüsse’ verstanden (Trümpy Fachausdrücke 114; s. auch Porzig Satzinhalte 204 und 210). Vgl. ἑκάεργος und Ἑκάβη.

Frist says that ἑκατηβελέτης was in ancient times (but long after Homer) was compared with ἑκηβόλος and explained as far-shooter (but metrically lengthened) or explained as “with a hundred shots.” However, it may simply have come from ἐκηβόλος by way of ἕκατος.

W.H.D. Rouse varies the epithet with “Apollo shooter-far” in his translation, which I’ve always thought has a nice ring to it.

8

I think that mwh may mean that is how people who lived hundreds of years after Homer understood the word.

When did Homer live, if ever?

People were trying to explain obscure words in the Homeric poems as early as the sixth century, and there were many words in the traditional Homeric vocabulary that were probably already unintelligible when the poems themselves were composed, whenever that was.

9

It wasn’t Homer but some other poet with the same name.

And according to a recent theory the poems weren’t composed, they just crystallized!

10

It occurs to me that being a novice to Homer and finding out that later readers had their own issues with the vocabulary, I may consider myself to be in Good Company. :slight_smile:

11

Good points. I was trying to be expansive in my language, but did not succeed. To try again, the first person who thought that ϝἑκηβόλος was a reasonable thing to call Apollo, probably used it to mean “he who shoots what he will.” Later on, people forgot what the word meant, and by the time we have literary commentary on the Iliad, it means “far-shooter.” Frisk argues that the person who wrote Iliad Ε 54 likely understood it as a “far shot,” but I haven’t looked up the sources and don’t see what the argument would be from the context. (Others who are better at Greek than me likely can.)

υἱὸν δὲ Στροφίοιο Σκαμάνδριον αἵμονα θήρης
Ἀτρεΐδης Μενέλαος ἕλ’ ἔγχεϊ ὀξυόεντι
ἐσθλὸν θηρητῆρα· δίδαξε γὰρ Ἄρτεμις αὐτὴ
βάλλειν ἄγρια πάντα, τά τε τρέφει οὔρεσιν ὕλη·
ἀλλ’ οὔ οἱ τότε γε χραῖσμ’ Ἄρτεμις ἰοχέαιρα,
οὐδὲ > ἑκηβολίαι > ᾗσιν τὸ πρίν γε κέκαστο·
ἀλλά μιν Ἀτρεΐδης δουρικλειτὸς Μενέλαος
πρόσθεν ἕθεν φεύγοντα μετάφρενον οὔτασε δουρὶ
ὤμων μεσσηγύς, διὰ δὲ στήθεσφιν ἔλασσεν,
ἤριπε δὲ πρηνής, ἀράβησε δὲ τεύχε’ ἐπ’ αὐτῷ.

12

The commentators would appear to be unanimous that ἑκηϐόλος originally meant “striking at will”. Here’s Beekes, to be sure:

With this is to be compared ἑκάεργος:

I hope I’m not insulting anyone’s intellect by explaining that the Sanskrit word bahuvrīhi denotes a compound word ‘AB’ which means “whose B is A”. Thus ῥοδοδάκτυλος doesn’t mean “**rose-finger” but “whose fingers are rosy” uel sim. In similar manner the word bahuvrīhi- means “he who has a lot of rice”, i.e. in effect “rich”.

I’m no expert, but obviously this is just ‘too silly’. Every theory has its problems, but surely the one-man-in-one-single-point-of-time conjecture rings most closely true.

13

I figured that would set the cat among the pigeons, but I didn’t expect quite such an outpouring of subsequent posts. I ignore the lure of the Homeric Question dangled by Hylander, which is a, well, a somewhat bigger question.

I wouldn’t mind seeing evidence that εκηβολος and εκατηβολος didn’t mean (i.e. weren’t understood as meaning) “far-shooter” i.e. “shooting/striking from afar” in Homer’s own time, or for Homer himself. Frist (Frisk?) doesn’t say “long after Homer,” and I didn’t mean only “hundreds of years after.”

As often, there’s a risk of confusing what a word originally meant and what in historical times it actually did. And of prioritizing the former.

Lots of Homeric words, especially traditional epithets, were open to different interpretations (Apollonius Sophista documents no fewer than nine for αβιων), and evidently some bright spark contested “shooting from afar” in favor of “hundred-shooting.” But Joel’s D-scholium (ἑκηβόλου: ἕκαθεν ὅ ἐστι πόρρωθεν βάλλοντος τὰ βέλη, εὐστόχου τοξότου) just gives the standard meaning, as D-scholia habitually do. (They practically constitute the standard meaning.) The important thing about this complex of words is that they designate Apollo, Apollo qua archer-god.

14

Frist → Frisk, thank you. I got it right 1 for 3 above. I blame too many hours lately transcribing from a book written in Fraktur.

Frisk says to see ἑκάεργος for the reasoning, and what he says there is precisely what Beekes says about it, as quoted by Timothée, so I won’t transcribe. Except that Frisk says “vielmehr zu verstehen,” which I thought put it more strongly. I notice that both of the Beekes quotes seem to originate in Frisk. But Frisk does say to check Bechtel’s Lexilogus zu Homer “s.v.m. Lit” and also Schwyzer 439A.8. Neither of which I have access to, so that is where I give up. Though I doubt that Timothée will.

I could have sworn that I saw a detailed discussion of all this in English somewhere before I started looking things up today. Maybe Leaf? But I can’t remember now.

15

Beekes is essentially an English translation of Frisk, with updates (which don’t necessarily improve but often devalue it).

I cannot access Bechtel until next week. Schwyzer’s footnote doesn’t contain much new to what we already have here. He refers to Brugmann who says here that the pertinent words would contain ἑκοντ- in its weak grade *ϝεκατ-. Schwyzer says no, it has instead the adverb *ϝεκα (with short -α), which Frisk & Beekes mention too. Ἑκατηϐόλος is metrically stretched (‘[eine] metrische Streckform’), imitated after ἑκατόν, referred to by mwh above. Apparently Wackernagel claims (with the ancients) in IF 45 (I cannot access it at the moment to confirm) that it would in fact have the word ἑκατόν in it, which Schwyzer denies. The byform ἕκατος is abbreviated from ἑκατηϐόλος. Brugmann says that other words in -ηϐόλος offered a model for ἑκηϐόλος, where others I’ve seen just speak of short α metri gratia lengthened.

I’m not sure what we’ve gained from all this.

16

I’m not sure what we’ve gained from all this.

What we’ve gained is a confirmation that the “original” meaning of the word is obscure, and various authorities, ancient and modern, have struggled unconvincingly to explain it.

We just have to accept it as a traditional epithet of Apollo that probably “originally” had something to do with archery and may not even have had a specific meaning for “Homer,” whoever he/she/they/it was/were.

17

More or less so, yes. But why “struggled unconvincingly”? It seems quite certain to me that the original meaning was “striking at will” and that the word was later (perhaps already before “Homer”) reinterpreted as “shooting from afar”. That’s enough for me!

Just for your information, I checked Lexikon des frühgriechischen Epos, and found nothing to add to the discussion.

18

It might be worthwhile checking each instance of these words in the Iliad (do they appear in the Odyssey at all?) to see whether in fact they might have had some meaning in context. I think some of the traditional epithets are in fact used in a meaningful way in the poems.