trying to read Apuleus

I’m having a problem putting the following together, I understand the general gist of the sentence (because I know the story) but once again I’m missing a few pieces

Hi tres numero filias forma conspicuas habuere, sed maiores quidem natu, quamvis gratissima specie, idonee tamen celebrari posse laudibu humanis credebantur, at vero puellae iuiores tam praecipua tam preaclara pulchritudo nec exprimi ac ne sufficienter quidem laudari sermonis humani penuria poterat.


First of all, why are sentences so long? I was having this problem with Caesar. Short sentences I can usually figure out, but these paragraph sentences are harsh.

They had three daughters with distinguished beauty
why use numero, three in number?

habuere is infinitative, why? does it refer to Hi, they (the king and queen from the previous sentence) or filias (as in the daughters possessed distinguished beauty)

sed mairos quidem natu - but certain older women

quamvis gratissima specie, - however a most pleasing sight,

idonee tamen celebrari posse laudibus humanis credebantur,
celebrari comes from celebro - to glorify/celebrate, how does it end up ending in -ari?
laudibus humanis - with kind praise?

they had been believed to be ideal to celebrate with kind praise..?

how does posse fit in, infinative with a ppp (credebantur) sounds familiar…

Where do the older women fit in?


at vero puellae iunioris tam praecipua tam praeclara pulchritudo nec exprimi ac ne sufficienter quidem laudari sermonis humani penuria poterat.

certainly the youngest of the girls was so special, of so (such?) distunguished beauty

I think the rest of it is something to the effect of ..neither imitation nor kind words were able to sufficiently describe her…

penuria I have as want/need, I assume it is in Ablative but I still can’t figure out how it fits in the sentence (maybe I’m having a hard time thinking of ‘want’ as a noun)

Apuleius! I had a delightful time - often, of course, frustrating, and sometimes even impenetrable - with the Cupid & Psyche selections (Books 4-6) this past semester. Thanks for the chance to reminisce…

Hi tres numero filias forma conspicuas habuere, sed maiores quidem natu, quamvis gratissima specie, idonee tamen celebrari posse laudibu humanis credebantur, at vero puellae iuiores tam praecipua tam preaclara pulchritudo nec exprimi ac ne sufficienter quidem laudari sermonis humani penuria poterat.

There are a few errors here - typos, I’m guessing. E.g. laudibus and puellae iunioris.

First of all, why are sentences so long?

Good question. Apuleius is reveling in the possibilities of Latin, and sentence length naturally falls into that experimentation. Take a look at Laurence Sterne’s Tristram Shandy (18th century) if you’re interested in seeing the possibilities of contorted syntax in English.

They had three daughters with distinguished beauty…
why use numero, three in number?

Literally, “daughters distinguished in beauty.” As for numero–Latin idiom, I guess.

habuere is infinitative, why? does it refer to Hi, they (the king and queen from the previous sentence) or filias (as in the daughters possessed distinguished beauty)

habuere is third person plural, perfect tense - note that -ere can replace -erunt with no difference in meaning. The u makes the difference here (habere is the infinitive).

sed mairos quidem natu - but certain older women

here, the older sisters (lit., “but the greater indeed in birth”) - note the wordplay on maiores - greater in age but not in beauty.

quamvis gratissima specie, - however a most pleasing sight,

gratissima specie, being ablative, is probably abl. of quality - in other words, it’s describing the older sisters (loosely: “granted, pretty fine in their own right”).

idonee tamen celebrari posse laudibus humanis credebantur,
celebrari comes from celebro - to glorify/celebrate, how does it end up ending in -ari?
laudibus humanis - with kind praise?
they had been believed to be ideal to celebrate with kind praise..?
how does posse fit in, infinative with a ppp (credebantur) sounds familiar…
Where do the older women fit in?

*Lots of questions here… your rendering is fine, though “believed to be able to be celebrated” captures the syntax better. Try this word order [maiores…credebantur posse laudibus humanis idonee celebrari . *laudibus humanis is abl. of instrument and means “with human praises,” not with kind praises.
*credebantur is personal and thus takes an infinitive (posse): “they were believed to be able to…” and celebrari in turn depends on posse
-credebantur is imperfect, not ppp
-the older women are still the subject here.

at vero puellae iunioris tam praecipua tam praeclara pulchritudo nec exprimi ac ne sufficienter quidem laudari sermonis humani penuria poterat.
certainly the youngest of the girls was so special, of so (such?) distunguished beauty…
I think the rest of it is something to the effect of ..neither imitation nor kind words were able to sufficiently describe her…
penuria I have as want/need, I assume it is in Ablative but I still can’t figure out how it fits in the sentence (maybe I’m having a hard time thinking of ‘want’ as a noun)

-you’re close, but there’s not an implied erat here (though that happens all over Apuleius. Let’s dehydrate the sentence a bit. puellae pulchritudo nec exprimi nec laudari poterat: so pulchritudo here is the subject, “her beauty could neither be expressed nor praised.”
-thus tam praecipua, tam praeclara are adjectives modifying pulchritudo (feminine, as all nouns with -tudo)
-penuria is indeed abl.: think of it as abl. of cause (kind of rare), with sermonis humani (human speech) depending on it. Thus, it’s something like “could not be praised owing to the poverty of human language.”

Whew! Feel free to ask any further questions.

-David

thanks, this story came up in my mythology group, I had always assumed it was a greek story, but since finding the original to be in Latin, I decided to try it. I’ve had enough of the Helvetiis for now, I 'd rather read about handsome gods, beautiful maidens and vengeful mother-in-laws, poor Psyche, LOL.


So the first part of the sentence, worthy of praise etc, refers to the sisters and when the youngest one is introduced, the rest of the sentence refers to her (or her beauty more specifically)?(two seperate sentences would have been helpful…oh, well)

That’s exactly right. Technically, it’s a compound sentence “blah blah blah, but blah blah blah.” So the at is a little clue. Still, you’re right. Pretty tough. Sadly, Apuleius can be even tougher than that!

Hope you continue enjoying the reading. It’s really delightful - once, of course, the grammar has been dealt with.

Best,

David