I am trying to translate the current sentence from English to Ancient Greek: “He always knows which path to choose.”
I have translated it: “οἶδε ἀεί ὁποίαν ὁδόν αἱρεῖσθαι.” However, I am not really sure if it is correct to render the indirect question “which path to choose” with the infinitive mood αἱρεῖσθαι or whether the indirect question requires that I use a finite verb. In grammars I haven’t been able to find any example of an indirect question with the infinitive, so that’s why I’m asking.
It might not be idiomatic, but I don’t see anything wrong with it (except the acutes on the last syllables that should be graves).
οἶδα with infinitive means I know how, which is what we mean here:
c. inf., know how to do, οἶδʼ ἐπὶ δεξιά, οἶδʼ ἐπʼ ἀριστερὰ νωμῆσαι βῶν 7.238, cf. S. Ph. 1010, Ar. V. 376; also, to be in a condition, be able, have the power, E. Med. 664, D. 4.40; of drugs, ὅσα λεπτύνειν οἶδε Alex. Trall.Febr. 6; of a festival, οἶδε ἐκπέμπουσα δάκνειν Chor.p.124 B.; learn, ἵνʼ εἰδῇ μὴ ʼπὶ τοῖς ἐμοῖς κακοῖς ὑψηλὸς εἶναι E. Hipp. 729.
Hi Varn, it sounds like you are trying to translate the English syntax (which you shouldn’t do). I say this because you said ‘In grammars I haven’t been able to find any example of an indirect question with the infinitive’, rather than starting from the Greek constructions themselves.
Perhaps imagine that you were explaining to someone what the English sentence means, particularly ‘path to choose’. Would you bring obligation/necessity into your explanation? (There are different ways to express this: χρή, -τέον, δεῖ, ἀνάγκη, ἀναγκαῖον, etc.). Would you drop ‘path’ altogether in your explanation? (Greek often uses a clause where we in English use a substantive). etc. etc.
I’d suggest you start by having a read of the following book (vol. 1 of Donovan): despite ‘advanced’ in the title, it’s an excellent intro to approaching Greek prose comp from a different direction:
@bedwere: thank you for your comment and for pointing out about the accent.
@cb and @jeidsath: thank you for your comments. I am trying to keep the English syntax (with the infinitive form) not because I want to keep the English syntax per se, but because I think that in this case it would be the best way to retain in Greek the same meaning that the sentence has in English. More specifically, as it has been pointed out, the sentence in English is rather vague, and in my opinion using the infinitive form also in Greek would be the best way to keep that “vagueness”, without having to overtly specify whether there is obligation/intention in the action.
That being said, I want to keep the infinitive form only If I am completely sure that is grammatically correct in Greek in this particular case. So, to reformulate my question a little bit more precisely: is grammatically correct (in spite of how vague the sentence sounds) to use the infinitive form in this sentence or do I necessarily have to use a more explicit construction with a finite verb?
If you have any idea, please let me know.
I don’t think there’s a rule against it. A substantive, like ὅδος, can take an infinitive. ὅδος αἱρεῖσθαι. Understanding it as passive, “road to be chosen.”
Hi, I usually stop posting in a thread once I have nothing new to add (even if I disagree with the subsequent posts, as readers can make up their own minds — I don’t hold myself out as a judge here), but on this occasion, I’d suggest again that you read the Donovan book linked above, and let the ideas grow inside you for a while. The book (and other Greek composition books) are a great starting point to break away from the common desire to render the ‘nearest surface equivalents’ in words and syntax — particularly the heavy modern reliance on substantive with attached infinitives etc. to carry the weight of a clause — to arrive at something that ‘sounds more like Greek’ (a hard thing to pin down, and one on which I will not hold myself out as judge, as noted above!).
You will then start thinking about every word in a new way. Take e.g. ‘always’ in your quote. What you you actually mean by ‘always knowing’ something: is ἀεί what you really mean (it might be, but have another think about it)? Or is it that you know what to do on each occasion (in a more distributive sense), such as ἑκάστοτε?
There is a modern temptation to “control-f” examples, but this will come to all of us with more and more reading, so that we are not reflecting rarer constructions but getting a better sense of how the ancients expressed themselves, beyond what is technically ‘right’ (which is what composition is all about).
Hi Varn,
You were quite right to think that ὁποίαν ὁδόν αἱρεῖσθαι would not do. An indirect question, just like a direct one, needs a finite verb, otherwise it just doesn’t make sense.
If you think of someone asking themselves “Which road to choose?”, they might use a deliberative subjunctive, τίνα ὁδὸν ἕλωμαι; (“What road am I to choose?”) or ποτέραν ἕλωμαι if the choice is between only two. Or δεῖ ἑλέσθαι instead of the subjunctive, introducing the idea of “should.”
Similarly with indirect, e.g. ἑκάστοτ’ οἶδε τίνα (or ἥντινα) ὁδὸν δεῖ ἑλέσθαι.
Of course εστι does not need to be expressed. The point is that ὁποίαν ὁδόν αἱρεῖσθαι simply could not be an indirect question—with or without εστιν.
And I cannot commend ὁδὸς αἱρεῖσθαι “road to be chosen”—scarcely to be countenanced even if αἱρεῖσθαι could be understood as passive rather than the usual middle. To attach an infinitive to ὁδός is much more of an English construction than a Greek one, and to extrapolate from σχολὴ μανθάνειν as you do is to fall prey to just the sort of English-dependent surface dangers that Chad warned against.
I certainly never said it was good usage. I gave several examples of better ways to say it, sticking close to the original poster’s usage and all the while, trying to answer his initial query about “infinitives in indirect questions.”
But then, when asked specifically, I said it was grammatically possible. Which it is. Your statement about finite verbs was simply wrong.
The stuff about usage boils down to “read a lot”. Donovan is useless to anybody until they can read him fluently. And while he is pleasant to read, and useful to think about, his advice isn’t generally of the actionable variety.
As I’ve noted before, it’s a waste of time arguing with you, who always think you know better than anyone else. But I protest against your saying that I was “simply wrong” in making the elementary point that an indirect question needs a finite verb. εστι is often understood when it is not expressed, as you know full well. You were being disingenuous, a bad habit of yours when you want to score points against me, as you try to do whenever you think you can.
And what you claim were “better ways to say it” were actually nothing of the sort. And all that stuff about infinitives was just muddying the waters.