ἡ τλήμων ὡς διαβησομένη

Greek Learning Greek
1

Greetings all,

I’m trying to translate this epigram (#7 in Extra Reading of Chap. 12):
τὴν ψυχήν, Ἀγάθωνα ϕιλῶν, ἐπὶ χείλεσιν ἔσχον· ἦλθε γὰρ ἡ τλήμων ὡς διαβησομένη.

Betts, Gavin; Henry, Alan. Complete Ancient Greek: A Comprehensive Guide to Reading and Understanding Ancient Greek, with Original Texts (Complete Language Courses) (p. 212). John Murray Press. Kindle Edition.

I found this translation online, but I’m not sure about the “wretch” part:
(7) As I was kissing Agathon, I checked my soul at [my] lips; for it had come, poor wretch, with
the idea of crossing over. (AP v. 78)

This would make more sense to me, if it’s possible:
As I was kissing Agathon, I checked my foolhardy (τλήμων) soul at [my] lips; for it had come with
the intention of crossing over.

In other words, the speaker almost foolishly gave up his soul to (fell in love with) Agathon but controlled himself.

Any suggestions? As you can see from the citation of the source, I’m still a beginner/intermediate so my confidence level is low, but it just seems like “wretch” doesn’t work.

2

Hi!
What a beautiful epigram! Thank you for sharing it and the reference to the book. While waiting for the reply from somebody more experienced, I will share my version.

In the first clause “τὴν ψυχήν” is the object of “ἔσχον” which is 1 pers. singular aorist, so I checked my soul at [my] lips seems correct.
ἡ τλήμων (wretched / foolhardy) is a part of the next clause, where it is the subject with the predicate ἦλθε. ἡ τλήμων (wretched) is again the soul. Feminine article shows that, because adjective τλήμων has the same form for both masculine and feminine. Literally I would translate the second clause “for the poor thing came with
the intention of crossing over.” So during the kiss, the soul was at the lips of the lover, ready to cross over and leave him/her, so he/she checked it.

3

Just to add a little to varnenas’ excellent explication. The epigram is a very neatly composed homo-erotic elegiac couplet, written in the person of Plato. Agathon is a character in Plato’s Symposium, and was known for his beauty. The epigram plays on the philosophical idea of the transmigration of souls, influentially discussed by Plato in other works.

4

This detail adds a lot to epigram’s elegance! It is so cunning! I’m enchanted.

5

The lover is certainly male (as is Agathon) φιλῶν not φιλοῦσα. It’s clearly homosexual/homoerotic.

Still, I’m not sure I like “as I was kissing” for φιλῶν instead of just “kissing”. The physical act isn’t made explicit and perhaps the language doesn’t necessarily describe making out. Also, the ψυχή leaves through the lips, but does it have to enter the other body through the lips? It’s not a πνεῦμα.

The same image also appears in the Ephesian Tale, much more explicitly described. Here only knowledge is transferred soul-to-soul at the lips.

Εἰποῦσα ἅπαν μὲν αὐτοῦ τὸ πρόσωπον ἠσπάζετο, ἅπασαν δὲ τὴν κόμην τοῖς αὑτῆς ὀφθαλμοῖς προσετίθει καὶ τοὺς στεφάνους ἀνελάμβανε καὶ τὰ χείλη τοῖς χείλεσι φιλοῦσα συνηρμόκει, καὶ ὅσα ἐνενόουν, διὰ τῶν χειλέων ἐκ ψυχῆς εἰς τὴν θατέρου ψυχὴν [διὰ τοῦ φιλήματος] παρεπέμπετο.

And a different context (Herodas’ Mimes) has a wretched soul being left upon the lips. Many of these lines in Herodas are proverbial expressions, and maybe this could be as well.

τοῦτον κατ’ ὤμου δεῖρον, ἄχρις ἠ ψυχή
αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ χειλέων μοῦνον ἠ κακὴ λειφθῆι.

Speaking of proverbs, it’s best for lovers to be careful about this sort of thing:

ὃς φυλάσσει τὸ ἑαυτοῦ στόμα, τηρεῖ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ψυχήν

6

“As I was kissing” is just as good a translation of φιλῶν as “kissing,” if not better.

The epigram does have one ambiguity, though. Just whose soul is it that the speaker (“Plato”?) blocks from transmigrating? His own, or Agathon’s? It can be read either way.

7

The Greek isn’t specific enough to say that the act has long duration, “making out”/“as I was kissing”. It could just as easily refer to a momentary act (ie., context could even be a one-sided act at the anticipatory stage of the relationship). “Kissing” embraces both.

His own, or Agathon’s?

Lol. I like this soulless soul-sucking vampire-Plato idea.

8

Thanks everybody for all the suggestions and background info!

On the question on whether the soul is tryiing to transmigrate out or in, I think it must be trying to transmigrate from Plato (THE Plato?) into Agathon, because the future participle διαβησομένη expresses purpose and Plato could only be aware of what his own soul purports to do, not Agathon’s, so Platon couldn’t take any action against the latter (by closing his lips).

On my original question about “wretched”, Wiktionary gives three possible meanngs:
τλήμων • (tlḗmōn) m or f (neuter τλῆμον); third declension

  1. patient, steadfast, stouthearted
  2. (in bad sense) overbold, reckless
  3. wretched, miserable

The second sense of “overbold/foolhardy” seems to fit the overall metaphor of self-restraint against hasty abandonment much better than “wretched” (although V’s clever “my poor little soul” works as a sort of ironic self-deprecatory expression).

9

ὁ τλήμων used to refer appellationally or maybe somewhat euphemistically to a person is common. Examples of this designatory use from LSJ.

Soph: ποῦ γὰρ ὁ τλήμων αὐτὸς ἄπεστιν;
Aristophanes: πόθεν οὖν ὁ τλήμων ἐνθάδ’ ἕξει σιτία;
Xenophon: ὑβριζόμενοι οὐδὲ ἀποθανεῖν οἱ τλήμονες δύνανται
Xenophon: Ὦ τλῆμον, τί δὲ σὺ ἀγαθὸν ἔχεις;

You might say “poor guy.”

But that aside, looking more carefully at the “overbold, reckless” of Wiktionary, you can see that they’re just grabbing glosses straight the LSJ definition:

  1. in bad sense, overbold, reckless, Thgn. 196; τλάμονι καὶ πανούργῳ χειρί A.Ch.384 (lyr.); τλημονεστάτη γυνή S.El.439, cf. 275, A.Ch.596 (lyr.); τλάμονι θυμῷ E.Med.865 (lyr.).

Quoting all of those examples a bit more fully:

Thgn. 196

Αὐτός τοι ταύτην εἰδὼς κακόπατριν ἐοῦσαν
εἰς οἴκους ἄγεται χρήμασι πειθόμενος
εὔδοξος κακόδοξον, ἐπεὶ κρατερή μιν ἀνάγκη
ἐντύνει, ἥτ’ ἀνδρὸς τλήμονα θῆκε νόον.

For real, he knows that this woman is of a crappy family,
as he brings her into his house for the money,
a good guy leading this shitty girl. It’s cuz crushing need
set him up to it, or made the man’s mind τλήμονα too.

A.Ch. 384

Ζεῦ Ζεῦ, κάτωθεν ἀμπέμπειν
ὑστερόποινον ἄταν
βροτῶν τλήμονι καὶ πανούργωι
χειρί

Zeus Zeus, to send back up from beneath tardy Ate upon the τλήμονι and evil handiwork of mortals…

S.El. 439

ἀρχὴν δ’ ἄν, εἰ μὴ τλημονεστάτη γυνὴ
πασῶν ἔβλαστε, τάσδε δυσμενεῖς χοὰς
οὐκ ἄν ποθ’ ὅν γ’ ἔκτεινε τῷδ’ ἐπέστεφε.

If she hadn’t popped out of the ground at the start as the most τλημονεστάτη woman of all, she would not be putting enemy flowers on the grave of the guy she killed that way.

S.El 275

ἡ δ’ ὧδε τλήμων ὥστε τῷ μιάστορι
ξύνεστ’, Ἐρινὺν οὔτιν’ ἐκφοβουμένη·

She’s so τλήμων that she hooks up with this Hitler, not worried about any karma.

A.Ch. 596

ἀλλ’ ὑπέρτολμον ἀν-
δρὸς φρόνημα τίς λέγοι
καὶ γυναικῶν φρεσὶν τλημόνων
παντόλμους ἔρωτας, ἄ-
ταισι < > συννόμους βροτῶν;

But who might describe an overbold thought of a man, and describe the totally bold loves of women who are τλημόνων in their hearts, companions of … the insanities of mortals?

E.Med 865

οὐ δυνάσηι
παίδων ἱκετᾶν πιτνόντων
τέγξαι χέρα φοινίαν
τλάμονι θυμῶι.

With your children begging on the floor, you won’t have the τλάμονι guts to stain your hand red.

  1. The level of negativity is pretty high in these, unlike the Plato epigram.

  2. What these put me in mind of is not “overbold” or “reckless”, but “relentless” “ruthless” “numb” “insensible” or “mulish”. It’s still τλήμων at base, meaning “someone who endures”, but with the negative meanings that can come from that base quality.

10

I’m not sure what you mean.. You say my epigram doesn’t explicitly refer to the physical act of kissing, but what other type of kissing is there? If the followiing is a proper translation of the passage from the Ephesian Tale you cite, the kissing is eentirely physical, there, too, and the “passing of the soul” metaphor seems equally applicable:

“After speaking, she kissed all of his face, pressed all of his hair to her eyes, took up the garlands, and, kissing his lips with her lips, she joined them together. And everything she felt in her heart was sent, through her lips, from her soul into the soul of the other [through the kiss].”

You say the psyche is not a pneuma but I think the image is the same here, with the kisser’s soul being “breathed” into the body of the kissed person, although in the epigram the kisser is afraid of abandoning his soul (which he deems overbold/reckless) and therefore checks it at his lips.

Or how do you explain the epigram without the physical act of kissing, and what would be the non-erotic “knowledge” transmitted?

11

what other type of kissing is there

Kissing ranges from pecks to lip-locks, from a signifier of greeting to intense sexual interaction. The English implies one sort of duration, but the Greek doesn’t say one way or the other. It’s not explicit.

The Ephesian Tale description, by contrast, is entirely explicit, though knowledge passes, not souls.

You say my epigram doesn’t explicitly refer to the physical act of kissing

No I don’t. I say that it doesn’t make the precise nature or duration of the physical act explicit.