τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

Greek Koine and Biblical and Medieval Greek
1

τι εμοι/ημιν και συ

(NT; Mt 8:29; Mk 1:24; 5:7; Lk 4:34; 8:28; John 2:4)

No, the above cited text is not a mistake, it’s the variant I found in Ms 828 John 2:4.

The expression τι εμοι και σοι was discussed here before ([http://discourse.textkit.com/t/and-a-suggestion-for-john-2-4/16358/14))

Checking this variant in the INTF-Collations turned out, that about 20% of all transcribed Mss. have συ instead of σοι. (I collected a total of 640 Mss, 145 of them have συ, the rest reads σοι). 28 mss have in 2 or more verses συ (555 and 2680 even in 4 Verses).
The numbers of witnesses don‘t look like pointing to simple „scribal error”.

There are also mss. that have σου (John 2:4: K, W, Θ, Λ, 69, 1424; P75; Lk 4:34 Ms 33)or ημων, but they are a rather small minority.

In Luke only Ms 038 has συ in both verses. Luke has further no other witnesses for συ in these verses.

The reading with συ is also witnessed in Vitae Sancti Auxentii (TLG); Eusebius Caesariensis : „Demonstratio Evangelica”; Theodoretus of Cyrrhus : „Questiones et responsiones ad Orthodoxes”.

The ECM Mark (print and on-line) doesn‘t mention this reading at all (Mk 1:24, 5:7). Neither does NA28. Swanson has some of them in both Verses (and for the other instances).


Might there be some reason, why this reading doesn‘t show up in the ECM-Apparatus?

How could this reading be explained?

2

I think it’s simply because at some time, οι and υ began to be pronounced the same way, /i/. Actually, in modern Greek, ι η υ οι ει υι are all pronounced /i/.

3

That could have been a good explanation, but there are two problems with that explanation:
1: In the INTF-Transcriptions most Verses with σοι and/or συ have less than 4% of all Mss-witnesses that changed σοι > συ or συ > σοι, whilst in all Verses with the expresssion τι εμοι/ημιν και σοι/συ over 20% of the Mss have this switch.

2: The Mss 032 , 855 , 544, 979, 1029, 1047 , 1128 , 1574 have in one or more of the cases with the expression συ, whilst elsewhere in their texts there are no cases with this switch.

4

καὶ σύ makes a fair amount of sense for John 2:4 as an attempt to lighten Jesus’ apparent rudeness to Mary. τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σὺ γύναι; “What do even you have to do with me, woman?” It seems to be quoted this way a number of times in the Greek Patristic authors, and this could have bled over from John 2:4 to other verses.

My own understanding of the καὶ σοί John 2:4 is that the meaning is the plain “Why is this a matter for you and I, woman?” and that it’s only trying to interpret this in light of the very different Greek of the Synoptics that everyone gets to the apparently rude understanding and translation in our Bibles.

5

My suggestion then would be that the change in pronunciation would have made it easier to mix up to the two forms σοι/συ, but it would have happened more often in contexts where the change actually makes sense (perhaps for the reasons suggested by Joel).

6

Regarding the Expresssion τι εμοι και σοι I asked Chat gtp.

Well, chat gtp did quite nice in NT and LXX aspects, but then … the classic Greek Literature: Chat gtp must have some peculiar Library with unique editions of the Iliad and of Medea:

Chat-Log:

I am looking for witnesses of the Greek expression τι εμοι και σοι

ChatGPT
The Greek expression “τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί” (ti emoi kai soi) is an idiom that can be translated as “What is it to me and to you?” or “What have I to do with you?” in English. This expression is often used to convey a sense of disinterest, indifference, or a desire to avoid involvement in a particular matter.
The phrase can be found in various forms in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament. For example, in the Gospel of Matthew 8:29, demons say to Jesus, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God?” In the Gospel of Mark 5:7, a demon-possessed man says to Jesus, “What have you to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?”
If you are looking for witnesses or examples of the use of this expression in literature, historical records, or contemporary contexts, you may find instances in religious texts, classical literature, and everyday conversations. Keep in mind that the meaning and usage may vary depending on the specific context in which the expression is used.

could you look for witnesses in ancient greek literature?

ChatGPT
Certainly! The expression “τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί” (ti emoi kai soi) is indeed found in ancient Greek literature. Here are a couple of notable instances:

  • New Testament:
  • As mentioned earlier, this expression appears in the New Testament in various forms. In the Gospel of Matthew 8:29 (Κατὰ Ματθαῖον 8:29), demons say to Jesus, “τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ;” (ti hēmin kai soi, huie tou theou), which translates to “What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
  • Old Testament (Septuagint):
  • In the Old Testament, the expression appears in the Book of Judges 11:12 (Κρίται 11:12). In this passage, Jephthah responds to the Ammonite king’s accusations, saying, “ἐγὼ δὲ οὐκ ἐπάγω πόλεμον ἐν σοὶ ἀλλὰ τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί ἐκάλεσάς με;” (ego de ouk epagō polemon en soi alla ti emoi kai soi ekalesas me), which can be translated as “I have not brought war upon you, but what is it to me and to you that you have called me?”
    These examples showcase the usage of the expression in both religious and historical contexts within ancient Greek literature, providing insights into how it was employed in various situations.

And in non-biblical literature?

ChatGPT
Certainly! The expression “τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί” (ti emoi kai soi) is also found in non-biblical ancient Greek literature. Here are a couple of examples:

  • Homer’s Iliad:
  • In Book 9 of the Iliad, during the embassy to Achilles, Phoenix uses a form of this expression. In lines 323-324, he says, “καὶ μὲν τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί; τίς δ’ ἀπὸ πάντων ἀνθρώπων / ὡς τοίους γε φίλους ἔχει, ὅσσοι σέο θεῖοι ἄλλοι;” (kai men ti emoi kai soi? tis d’ apo panton anthrōpōn / hōs toiouus ge philous echei, hossoi seo theioi alloi?), which can be translated as “What is it to me and you? Who else among all mortal men has such dear friends as you have, other than the gods?”
  • Euripides’ Medea:
  • In Euripides’ tragedy “Medea,” the expression appears in lines 276-277. Medea says, “τί γὰρ ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί; τί δ’ ἄλλο φῶμ’ ἢ κακόν;” (ti gar emoi kai soi? ti d’ allo phōm’ ē kakon?), which translates to “What is it to me and you? What else can I say but that it is an evil?”
    These examples demonstrate the versatility of the expression in different literary genres and how it was used by ancient Greek authors to convey a range of sentiments, including indifference, disagreement, or a sense of separation.

is this expression also found in papyri?

ChatGPT
The expression “τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί” (ti emoi kai soi) is indeed found in some ancient Greek papyri. Papyri are ancient manuscripts written on papyrus, a material made from the pith of the papyrus plant. These documents include a wide range of texts, such as letters, contracts, legal documents, and literary works. The expression can appear in various contexts in these texts, reflecting its use in everyday language.
While I can’t provide specific examples from individual papyri due to the vast and diverse nature of the collection, researchers and scholars often study papyri to gain insights into the linguistic and cultural aspects of ancient societies. If you have access to databases or collections of ancient papyri, you may be able to find instances of this expression in letters, legal documents, or other written materials from antiquity. Scholars in the field of papyrology and ancient languages regularly explore such resources to better understand the language and expressions used in the daily lives of people in the ancient Mediterranean world.

7

Double-check that Judges quote.

Even worse than wikipedia, ChatGPT is often a bad approximation of conventional wisdom being repeated back at you. It will make up supporting evidence when it doesn’t have anything available.

8

Judges:

Hey! At Least “τι εμοι και σοι” is there …!

9

deep-seek is slightly better (careful!) :

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The expression τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί (or variations like τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί, γύναι) is a well-attested phrase in ancient Greek, appearing in both biblical and non-biblical contexts. Below is a synthesis of the evidence from the search results:

Biblical Contexts

The phrase τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί appears multiple times in the New Testament, such as in John 2:4, where Jesus responds to His mother Mary with this phrase. It also appears in other biblical passages like Mark 5:7 and Luke 8:28, where it is used by demon-possessed individuals addressing Jesus. The phrase is rooted in the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, where it appears in passages like Judges 11:12, 1 Kings 17:18, and 2 Kings 3:13117.

Non-Biblical Ancient Greek Contexts

While the search results primarily focus on biblical texts, the phrase τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί is not exclusive to biblical literature. It is a common Greek idiom that can be traced back to classical and Hellenistic Greek. The phrase is used to express a sense of disassociation or to question the relevance of a relationship or situation. For example:

In Homer’s Iliad, similar constructions are used to express confrontation or disengagement, though not the exact phrase2.
The phrase is also found in Greek tragedy and comedy, where characters use it to express frustration or to distance themselves from a situation2.
Manuscript Variations

The search results highlight variations in the phrase across manuscripts, particularly in the New Testament. For instance, some manuscripts use σύ (nominative) instead of σοί (dative), which has sparked debates about whether this is a scribal error or an intentional variation34. This variation is also attested in non-biblical texts, suggesting that the phrase was flexible in its usage3.

Conclusion

The expression τί ἐμοὶ καὶ σοί is well-documented in both biblical and non-biblical ancient Greek literature. While the search results focus on its biblical usage, the phrase’s presence in classical and Hellenistic Greek indicates its broader cultural and linguistic significance. For further exploration, one could examine classical Greek texts like Homer, Euripides, or Aristophanes for additional examples of this idiom.

If you need more specific examples from non-biblical texts, I recommend consulting classical Greek literature or specialized lexicons like Liddell-Scott-Jones (LSJ) for further evidence211.

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