The textbook "Ancient Greek: A structural programme"

Hello!

About six months ago, I finally decided that I was going to learn Ancient Greek. So far it’s been equally challenging and rewarding. Unfortunately, I think much of the difficulty is due to a lack of fitting teaching materials. Indeed, I was somewhat surprised to discover that the best resources seem to be an Italian textbook unavailable in most regions (Athenaze), a translation of a German textbook long out of print (Zuntz), and an introduction to the fundamentals of the language written before the American Civil War (Kendrick’s Ollendorff).

These materials seem to be favored because they’re more in tune with principles established by newer research into second-language acquisition, as opposed to the more traditional grammar-translation methods still used by most textbooks. Thus, I’d be interested to hear if any of you have any thoughts regarding another textbook that uses a very different approach: “Ancient Greek: A structural programme” by C.D. Ellis and A. Schachter. Released in the 1970s, it’s a massive work of more than 1400-pages divided into two volumes. It seems to have a lot going for it, but I haven’t seen any discussion of it.

First of all, the course has a much stronger oral focus than what’s usual. It consists of 30 units with a common six-part structure. I’ll paraphrase the authors:

Part A consists of simplified passages from Plato’s “Euthyphro” and “the Symposium” of Xenophon, which are to be learned by heart. These passages introduce and exemplify the elements which are being taught in the unit.

Part B consists of a series of self-correcting oral drills in which the new elements are taught. Each series of drills has a mimicry section, in which the new forms are learned by imitating the material given to you. Then there’s a section of recognition, in which you are asked to prove that you can recognize the new forms in contrast with other forms. Finally, there’s a section of production, in which you are asked to produce the new forms in contrast with other forms.

Part C is devoted to grammatical explanations of the forms introduced in part A and B.

Part D collects additional supplementary readings from Euthyphro and Symposium. They are for practice in the comprehension of Greek, which will be tested by the accompanying questions that are to be answered in Greek.

Part E consists of composition exercises.

Finally, Part F is a summary of the vocabulary that appears in the unit.”

In other words, except for section E, all the drills consist of listening and speaking. This enables one to work way faster than by writing. It’s also an excellent way of internalizing the language and vocabulary, because all the forms are presented in the context of short phrases, never as isolated paradigms (these follow in the section on grammar and in the appendix). Thus, you also get plenty of comprehensible input, and you’re forced to think in the language as well because all the drills are Greek → Greek, not Greek → English.

Secondly, the book is very thorough, both in scope and depth. In contrast to Kendrick’s Ollendorff, it covers all the basic grammar and then some. It has a thorough discussion on pronunciation and many sections devoted solely to practicing pitch accents. By the end, you’ve read the entire Euthyphro and 1/3 of the Symposium and learned over 1000 different lexical items. Thus, the transition to “real” Greek should be smoother because from the beginning that’s exactly what you’ve been reading.

The book is also very useful for self-study because all the drills are structured in such a way that you can check and correct your answer immediately. For me, this has been a big advantage compared to Zuntz and Athenaze.

On the downside, I quite frankly think the course is too demanding for absolute beginners. There’s so much information and so many exercises that I think you’ll be overwhelmed unless you have a foundation to build upon, or a teacher to guide you. At least I was! Furthermore, in keeping with the conversational approach of the course, it’s clear that all the readings and exercises were recorded, and that this recording was meant to be used together with the text. Unfortunately, I’ve been unable to find these recordings anywhere. Instead I simply read the text myself, and that almost always works fine. Still, it would be an amazing improvement if the recordings were available, especially given the limited supply of Greek audio-materials. Judging from the text they’re probably in the range of 100 hours! There’s also a couple of improvements that could be made to facilitate the independent student. The most important is that the sections containing supplementary materials and composition exercises could be given answer-keys or translations. Lastly, the text itself is out of print and difficult to find.

To sum up, I would be very interested to hear what someone more competent than me thinks of this textbook. At the very least it seems to be worth knowing about. In theory, many of the drawbacks could be improved. Answer keys could be written for the composition and supplementary sections. Someone skilled in pronunciation could re-record the drills, making sure to maintain proper vowel-length and pitch. I think this would make the course a great resource for those past the absolute beginner stage. The biggest obstacle right now is probably availability. A high quality scan would be ideal, but at this point I’m only aware of a scan of the first volume. Those with knowledge of the dark arts may easily find it in the usual places.

Welcome. Please feel free to add links to this thread, they sound very topical.

Thank you! I’ve added some relevant links now.

Hi Elaxer,

I purchased this set of books approximately 5 years ago at the recommendation of a teacher who had planned to offer an online class using this text. Unfortunately the course never materialized but I did retain the material and have scanned it to create a personal electronic copy.

I have tried to work through it myself but lacking the audio is a big down side for using it I think. I have been unsuccessful in procuring the audio to use with the course and have only seen one library in the world that has it listed as within their catalog (University of South Florida) and their listing shows it as 100 tapes on 50 audiotape reels : 2 track, mono. I am assuming this is the old cassette tape form but am not 100% sure. That being said, Interlibrary Loan does not appear to be an option for security these to copy them for personal use since most libraries only allow ILL for book material, not audio material.

I would be highly interested in working through this course if I felt I had the appropriate resources to run through it on my own or with a group.

I’m looking forward to other comments to see if this goes anywhere.

As a follow-up I decided to see if I could get access to the audio from University of South Florida. I spoke to the Interlibrary Loan Officer and she verified that they no longer have the audio, only the two volumes of the book.

I reached out to the publisher (McGill-Queen’s University Press) and they said it is out of print and no longer available.

Finally I reached out to the department where C.D. Ellis is Professor Emeritus. They don’t have a copy but I’m waiting to hear back if they can share his email address so I can reach out to him personally and see if he might have access to it somehow.

Unfortunately, I’m afraid neither Ellis nor Schachter has the tapes, at least according to the meticulous research done by the author of this impressive blogpost (search the page for Modern Discovery # 1. The blogpost itself is well worth reading, but beware of the rather uncharming polemics regarding pronunciation).

For my own part, I tried contacting the author behind this review of the textbook, but he confirmed he didn’t have the tapes either. I’d be surprised if they ever show up, and even if they do, I wonder what 50 years in storage has done to the audio quality… The best thing would probably be to rerecord the entire book using a different pronunciation scheme, one more suited for a beginner than the restored Attic is.

Hi all, interesting book - I hadn’t heard of it before, many thanks.

Just want to check whether the OP has seen this review of it, by a teacher who used it in a classroom setting for several years?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3296599?seq=1

It sets out some points worth bearing in mind before learning Greek using this book, rather than using the books with a longer track record (for all their flaws).

Modern language courses often provide multiple tracks (eg in Europe, a main track A1, A2, B1 etc., plus additional conversation courses at different skill levels on a parallel track) - I wonder whether this book could be useful for the “conversation” track, alongside one of the leading textbooks providing the foundations for the “main” track. That could help mitigate some of the issues that the review raises.

Cheers, Chad

Yes, indeed I have! Of the three reviews I’ve read, that one was definitely the most negative. In addition to the one I’ve already posted, a more positive impression can be found here (almost the entire review is available in the preview, the last lines are simply: “…nor are there any frills. The authors’ position on composition is
well worth thinking about: composition does help to firm up passive
knowledge, and, in my experience, it is a meaningful challenge in itself for
any enthusiastic pupil. In all, this course is an excellent introduction to Greek. My own inclination would be to use it in conjunction with a course in Greek culture and history and to follow it with extended simplified reading, gradually
tailing off into “real Greek”. L. G Kelly, University of Ottawa.
”).

I think most of his complaints are understandable. I fully agree that it’s overkill to learn all the basic dialogues by heart. Likewise, some of the drills could be structured a bit differently and supplied with more translated examples. On the other hand, I don’t think most of the other objections have that much force, at least not if one accepts my suggestion that the course is ill-suited for absolute beginners. For instance, he complains that in many of the drills different classes of verbs are mixed together. This is actually something I appreciate, because it gives something of an overview I’ve missed from other textbooks, and an ability to drill all the forms together at once. But I can definitely see how it might be more confusing than helpful if you’ve never been introduced to them before. Along the same lines, it doesn’t bother me that the aorist isn’t introduced until the second part of the course. As an independent student, I’m under no time constraints, so what’s important to me is that the lessons are thorough and well thought out once I get there.

He also laments the “1600 looseleaf, poorly Xeroxed, inaccurately typed, unnumbered pages”. This must mean that the review is based on the first edition of 1969, because my edition is certainly neither looseleaf or unnumbered. I also don’t think the grammatical terminology or paradigms are really a problem. Thanks to the internet, all these resources are now easily available if you don’t like the somewhat not-beginner friendly treatment in the book.

Finally, the complaints regarding the monotonous nature of the original texts feels misplaced to me. Yes, they are repetitive, but that’s also partly the point, because it helps to internalize the vocabulary and builds on what you’ve already learned. As for them not being “exciting” enough, to each his own, I guess, but I’m learning Greek precisely to read authors like Plato and Xenophon, so having such a close relationship to the original texts provides all the excitement I need.

So yeah, I think you’re right that using another textbook could mitigate most of the issues the reviewer has. Personally, I worked my way through Kendrick’s Ollendorff before beginning this, using the excellent materials provided by Randy Gibbons and Bedwere, and I’m very happy with that preparation.

This is great feedback. I think I may take a pass at Ollendorf before coming back to this course since I would get the audio and automaticity build in before jumping into this course alone.

Elaxer - how long did it take you to work through Ollendorf and how much time did you work on it per day?

I did hear back from the University and they don’t have any contact information for C.D. Ellis so I can’t reach out to directly ask if there is audio that can be accessed.

Audio here: http://uclid.uc.edu/search/o10369776

I started sometime in January and was finished by summer, so I’d say 5-6 months at 2-3 hours per day. Greek, however, is the first foreign language I’ve properly studied, so I imagine you could save a lot of time if you already have some prior experience with languages. Simply getting to grips with basic grammatical categories and the concept of an inflected language was my first challenge! I also took some long detours to improve my understanding of Greek morphology, and
I did all the exercises by writing. Looking back, the latter was probably a very time-consuming mistake.

Interesting. I wonder if this is the real deal, or another outdated listing. In any case, I live in Norway, so it’s beyond my means to do anything with. Presumably, on the assumption that the recordings are sufficiently good, the tapes would have to be digitized to be of any use. I wonder what rules the library has for such a process and how much it would cost? I suppose copyright laws might also interfere, unless the publisher, given that were talking about a dead niche work published in the 1960s, might be willing to make an exception.

Hello everybody. My best wishes for 2021.
In the early 80’s, while still living in France, I bought a copy of the compete set of tapes accompanying Ellis&Schater’s “Ancient Greek: A Structural Programme” (50 cassettes). The recordings were made by Professor Schater himself and some of his students. I used these materials for about two years and recently converted the recordings to MP3 using Audacity and some sound editing software programs. I should have done this earlier but couldn’t do it for personal reasons. The result is on the whole good, except for some cassettes that have a strong background noise and some fading that I could not erase or correct. Note however that those are mono recordings and rather “home-made”.
Professor Schachter sent me also a copy of his second year Greek course (The Apologies of Plato and Xenophon with exercises), an a key for the translation exercises in the main course. I intend to make a PDF copy of these in the near future.
I think that it will be impossible to send the folder containing the recordings by e-mail (3,5 Gb) but I can upload it to Google Drive and send you the link.
Best regard
Luiz H.

Luis that would be phenomenal! I have been struggling to use the resource but think using the audio would be very helpful.

The second year course would be appreciated as well. I didn’t realize there was one!

I recommend you use the Internet Archive instead.

Good evening.
I’ve just uploaded the audio materials for Professor Schachter’s “Ancient Greek: a Structural Programme” to Archive.org. The reference is: C 17 U 5 5 B R 1a P 4 or simply Schachter Ancient Greek. The recordings are in the Community Audios. The creator is Luiz H Guimaraes.
As I mentioned before, some recordings are of poor quality. The cassettes are 40 years old and some o them are in very bad condition. I tried to improve the quality of sound but was unable to do it. I hope that a member of Textkit will be more successful than I.
Best regards.
Luiz

Hello, everybody.
I also have a very clean PDF copy of Schachter’s first volume (703 pages). I can send this text by e-mail or upload it to archive.org.

Best wishes,
Luiz H

Luiz, this is an incredibly valuable contribution, thank you so much! I’m currently working my way through Unit 25, so I’ll immediately try to incorporate the audio and see how it works. Having just barely listened to some parts of it, I already think the recording of Unit 1 could be a great stand-alone resource in its own right for those of us who want to incorporate pitch-accents and emphasize correct vowel lengths in our speech.

The second-year course you referenced also sounds very interesting, and the fact that there’s an answer key for the translation exercises is great news. I hope you’re able to make these resources available as well, it would be greatly appreciated!

Regarding availability, I recently found a site were the two volumes can be purchased electronically. They’re overpriced and you would have to register for an account, but at least they’re available. Considering that the first volume is easy to find online, I guess most people would only have to consider purchasing the second volume.

https://www.deslibris.ca/en-us/search-results.aspx#textandkey=ancient%20greek%20a%20structural%20programme

Luiz, you are amazing!

Thank you from my heart for sharing this invaluable resource!!

For a dissenting opinion, having inspected a copy of the book, it doesn’t strike me as having any differentiating features that would make it particularly worthy of note. At the risk of sounding dismissive, the only method of language instruction that stands out as being significantly more effective than all the rest is the comprehensible input method. This book does very little in terms of incorporating the principles of that method, and therefore it will be quite limited as a learning resource. Given this deficiency, any advantage it may have will ultimately only be quite marginal, since it will at most be a book that is better at implementing a highly ineffective method.

To illustrate, the book has embraced a seemingly distinctive communicative focus through the use of drills and recorded material. Ultimately, however, this will add very little in terms of exposing the student to effective comprehensible input over what a fully traditional grammar-translation book offers. This is because the drills are still clearly oriented towards providing instruction in grammatical analysis. The book may, as a result of these devices, be more effective at this kind of instruction than some of the other available options. But overall it is still lacking abysmally in terms of focusing on what actually works, as any other book that is centered on explicit grammatical instruction, be it ‘communicative’ or not.

Having said this, the book does incidentally turn out to have a lot of comprehensible input in the form of the drills and the dialogues that are found in it. The problem is that this material is not presented as such. If one focuses on using it as a stash that one can mine for comprehensible input, however, the book may have some value, albeit a modest one, as a distinctive resource.

As far as I can tell, there is only one way of learning Greek by means of comprehensible input exposure through self study: First, acquire a minimal core of grammar and vocabulary very quickly (for example, by studing the core chapters of an intensive course like Mastronarde), and shift immediately to comprehensible input by reading graded texts (even if they are not ‘real Greek’). In this case, the Polis Institute’s textbook on Koine Greek is great. The JACT series, Athenazde, etc., are also good. Other than that, the only thing you can do is join a course with a teacher who is willing to use the comprehensible input method. Fortuantely, given the pandemic, many such courses have moved online, and it is easier than ever to partake in them.

I’m not sure that’s at all the case. The philosophy behind the course seems to be the audiolingual approach of the time, as exemplified in FSI’s courses on various modern languages - very much the fashion of the period, just as CI is now. Those who have tried these (there are a lot on https://forum.language-learners.org/) agree that the approach is dull, hard to get through, and very, very effective at internalising the language.
Without wanting to get into the whole debate, there’s still a whole bunch of research to be done on CI versus these methods, especially for independent learners, and there’s plenty of examples of people who have found the audiolingual method to be very effective.