The new Ovid fragment...

Textkit Community Open Board
1

Just saw this. The claim is a heretofore unknown Ovid text has been discovered. Is it real? More questions than answers at this point…

https://antigonejournal.com/2021/04/first-thoughts-new-naso/

2

Okay, apparently this is an April fools edition. Sorry for wasting anybody’s time.

3

Thanks — not a waste of time at all, this is hilarious! First glance, love it — haven’t had a chance to read all the articles yet, definitely plan to. The allusion in v. 20 to Cicero’s ridiculed verse o fortunatam natam me consule Romam made me laugh out loud:

https://antigonejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Fragmentum-Gigglesvicense.png

Or to Vergil’s 10th eclogue omnia vincit Amor in v. 13.

Also check out the so-called critical notes (e.g. the marginal variant handbagibus gives a clue that this is not quite what it seems):

https://antigonejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/AC.png

Any bets on who composed it? I’m going with David Butterfield at Cambridge.

I wonder if there’s a signature hidden somewhere in there…

Cheers, Chad

4

PS you have to read the articles as well — these are awesome. e.g. I just started with one and found this hilarious Ennian ‘correction’:

…we may indeed find that the appreciation of a large organ of smell was a common topos in Indo-European poetics. It is remarkable that Fisher overlooked this obvious fact, but this is probably because he has not spent much time on the textual tradition of the Ennian fragments; for what is now often quoted, in inferior editions, as > Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque > (156 Sk. = 167 Fl. = 467 W. = 500 V.), should of course be > Naribus antiquis > etc.

https://antigonejournal.com/2021/04/following-common-scents-in-the-new-naso/

Or this:

The genius of the piece consists in the poet’s inspired use of his proboscis as a metapoetic signifier. As anthropologists have long been aware, the nose plays an outsized role in Greco-Roman mentality as an organ not only of olfaction but also of cognition or even wisdom.

https://antigonejournal.com/2021/04/the-new-naso-a-preliminary-appreciation/

The other articles are great too: the collection must be the most comprehensive set of nasal tropes ever assembled.

Cheers, Chad

5

Yes, once clued in I found them a riot. A lot of work for a practical joke, but fun, and they must have giggled (Gigglesworth?) through the whole process. I also like the way they make fun of the whole manuscript acquisition scene and its various pitfalls. Ralph threw the original into the Thames so all we have is a handwritten copy he made? Hilarious.

6

Yes, thanks for posting, Barry. I’d like to think your “Sorry for wasting anybody’s time” was itself an April Fools. No-one could be fooled for a moment.

Scholars at play: a long tradition, brilliantly upheld. A veritable tour de force, or multiple tours de force. I’ve done no more than glance at most of the paraphernalia, but they’ll serve to fill idle moments as enjoyably as Ovid himself does (and as challengingly, in Holford-Strevens’ case).

omnia vincit olor v.l. odor was a gift (did it along with Naso spark the whole thing off?), cleverly complemented by the translation’s incorporation of amor in “aroma conquers all.”

7

Yeah, let’s go with that… :smiley: :open_mouth:

8

This strikes me as highly dedicated and of a very high degree of competence. It captures Ovid’s personality and fluffy Latin to a T (or should that be a N?). I’ve known PhDs issued for less!

I rhink that if I’d attempted this, I’d have gone for a spurious poem found quoted in a papyrus fragment from Oxyrhynchus. I’ve often wondered about Ovid’s banishment to the edge of Empire (perdiderunt cum me duo crimina, carmen et error. (Tristia 2)). Maybe the offending poem was a contemporary anonymous one, written in Ovid’s style and circulated, being a scurrilous satire on Augustus and his troublesome family.
That would have been my choice, if I had the competence, of which I’m not too sure.

Ed

9

PS for those interested in Ovidian verse composition, there was a fun challenge set recently to write the opening 4 couplets of the “New Naso” fragment. Check out the winning entries: they are amazing! (My own contribution comes next after them).

https://antigonejournal.com/2021/05/newer-naso-competition-winners/

Cheers, Chad

10

I love the criteria for panel selection:
‘These experts were chosen on two grounds: (i) direct expertise of Neo-Nasalian scholarship, and (ii) a repreresentative alphabetic spread. We also wished to ensure coverage of three different institutions: Jesus College in Oxford, UK; Columbia University in New York City, USA; and Wolfson College just south of Summertown, England. We are very grateful to Professor Armand D’Angour, Professor Katharina Volk, and Professor Philomen Probert for their expertise.’

11

Chad very many congratulations! I enjoyed your entry very much. And I am in awe!

12

Hi Seneca, thanks! PS my favourite was Colin Leach’s version. It’s fascinating to hear about his time studying classics at Oxford in the 50s:

https://classicsforall.org.uk/reading-room/ad-familiares/classics-oxford-1950s

I managed to sneak in 3rd onto the podium, but when I read his version I could see a huge distance between the two… a lifetime of reading classics shows up so well!

Cheers, Chad

13

I’ve only just seen your Ovid, Chad. It’s brilliant, even if Colin Leach deservedly wins the coconut. I childishly want to turn your elegiac probo into dactylic proboscis, but I can’t do it, unless you count the macaronic ει(-)δη ficta in mente, και ειδη γ’ ειδε proboscis—too clever by half, not to mention the horrid hiatus breaker.
P.S. But at least I know the perfect of λαμβάνω.

14

Hi Michael, ah I didn’t think of proboscis—you’re right, could have had fun with that!

Cheers, Chad

15

Thanks for posting this article, Chad, and congratulations on your success! After reading it, I found a copy of Some Oxford Compositions for sale (C.W. Willink’s copy no less). It has a very interesting introduction by T.F. Higham on how the Composition Club approached making their ‘versions’ (i.e. translations of English verse and prose into Greek and Latin imitating the style of a particular writer). Without meaning to be too coy, I could ‘pass on details’ of the book if anyone was interested as it’s very out of print.

I recently found out that my phone lets me copy Greek polytonic text from a photo with amazing accuracy (via Google Lens), so here’s the beginning of one of their translations if anyone wants to try guessing the English original.

'Εν Κνωσῷ βασιλεὺς Μίνως
ὑψίπυργον ἀνάκτορον
κτίσε ποτ᾽ ἁβροδίαιτον,
οὗ μάκαρος ποταμοῦ ῥοαὶ
διὰ μυχῶν δνοφερῶν ἐδίνευοντ᾽
ἀνθρώποισιν ἀπείριτων
εἰς ἀνήλιον οἶδμα.

16

Too easy. It’s–

Oh wait, there’s someone at the door and I can’t finish this post.

17

Hi Sean, I’d love to hear more about how the Composition Club made their versions. If you could please pass on any details, I’d really appreciate it! I really like Rouse’s Demonstrations in Latin elegiac verse here, since he explains line by line his composition choices:

https://archive.org/details/demonstrationsin00rousiala/page/n6/mode/1up

As for the poem, my knowledge of English poetry is very limited, but this one seems to comfortably slip within the range: one that sticks in the head with its flashing eyes, floating hair, milk of Paradise…

Cheers, Chad

18

Hole in one! I’ve sent you a PM with details of the introduction. If anyone else is interested do send me a PM and I’ll pass on a link.

I used the magic of AI to copy the contents list (first few words of the English text being translated) and I thought I might as well leave it here.
Initials are for J.G. Barrington-Ward, J. Bell, C.M. Bowra, A.N. Bryan-Brown, J.D. Denniston, T.F. Higham and M. Platnauer.

LATIN PROSE

  1. Among those who supported (1.G.B.-W.).

  2. At the bar, Jessel (J.D.D.).

  3. Auda’s patience (T.F.H.)

  4. But, Sir, we must judge (J.G.B.-W.)

  5. Eras, like individuals (J.D.D.)

  6. For a man to devote (C.M.B.)

  7. For no one can doubt (J.D.D.)

  8. From such a school (A.N.B.-B.)

  9. He attempted, however (M.P.)

  10. His opening (J.D.D.).

  11. Hurried by passion (T.F.H.)

  12. I am not for devoting (J.D.D.)

  13. I do not affect to scorn (J.B.)

  14. In studying the records (T.F.H.)

  15. Let me, Sir, recall (A.N.B.-B.)

  16. Mr. Attorney General (M.P.)

  17. Never was there a more monstrous massacre (J.B.)

  18. Nor shall I dwell (T.F.H.)

  19. On November the first (J.D.D.)

  20. Perhaps there is no point (T.F.H.)

  21. Still, although the time (J.B.)

  22. Strange is the fate (J.G.B.-W.)

  23. The British army (A.N.B.-B.)

  24. The condition of the Roman world (A.N.B.-B.)..

  25. The examples of Caesar’s mildness (J.B.)

  26. The most ancient of profane historians (J.G.B.-W.)

  27. The principles of the Revolution (A.N.B.-B.)

  28. The rapid series (J.B.)

  29. The Revolution, it has been said (J.G.B.-W.) world (M.P.)

  30. The uncritical

  31. There lurks (1.D.D.)

  32. Those who bring (M.P.)

  33. To say truth (A.N.B.-B.)

  34. We know of no great revolution (A.N.B.-B.)

  35. Wellington’s campaigns (A.N.B.-B.)

  36. What is it that makes mountaineering (J.G.B.-W.)

LATIN VERSE

  1. A globe far off (J.G.B.-W.).

  2. Ah, God! that I might see (J.G.B.-W.).

  3. All things are recreated (T.F.H.).

  4. All winter through (T.F.H.).

  5. Always eat grapes downwards (J.G.B.-W.)

  6. And while now the great San Philip (T.F.H.)

  7. Another part (C.M.B.)

  8. As when some bunter (J.G.B.-W.)

  9. Awed by his nobles (J.G.B.-W.)

  10. Cold is the winter day (J.G.B.-w.)

  11. Go, little book (1.G.B.-W.)

  12. Great Sir, as on each levée day (J.G.B.-W.)

  13. Here we securely live (1.G.B.-W.).

  14. High Front advanc’t (C.M.B.)

  15. How cam’st thou (J.G.B.-W.)

  16. I heard of late (1.G.B.-W.).

  17. If Love loves truth (J.G.B.-w.)

  18. If thou survive (1.G.B.-w.).

  19. It is therefore Death alone (J.G.B.-W.)

  20. It was a dismal (J.G.B.-W.)

  21. Je veus lire (T.F.H.)

  22. Margaret’s beauteous (J.G.B.-w.)

  23. Now sunk the Sun (T.F.H.).

  24. Oh roving Muse (J.G.B.-W.)

  25. Oh Thou, that sendest out (J.G.B.-W.)

  26. On a day (T.F.H.) 63. On this lone isle (M.P.)

  27. One of the surest ways (T.F.H.)

  28. Quand vous serez (T.F.H.)

  29. So, furiously our oarsmen (J.G.B.-W.)

  30. So stood unmov’d the Greeks (A.N.B.-B.)

  31. The fairest pearls (J.G.B.-W.)

  32. The thirsty earth (J.G.B.-W.)

  33. The world goes none the lamer (T.F.H.).

  34. There are numerous ways of foretelling rain (T.F.H.)

  35. This only grant me (J.G.B.-W.)

  36. Though frost and snow (1.G.B.-W.)

  37. To all you ladies (J.D.D.)

  38. What can atone (J.G.B.-W.).

  39. When shall I once again (M.P.)

GREEK PROSE

  1. After this preface (J.D.D.).

  2. Among those who supported (J.D.D.)

  3. And this is what our country (J.D.D.)

  4. Castruccio (J.D.D.)

  5. Everything was in confusion (J.D.D.)

  6. For these reasons (J.D.D.)

  7. Hastings (M.P.)

  8. Honourable Gentlemen turn with triumph (C.M.B.) 160

  9. I appeal to the noble lord (M.P.)

  10. If we examine the panegyrics (J.D.D.)

  11. In the meantime the murders (J.G.B.-W.)

  12. In wars, the least guilty (J.D.D.)

  13. No doubt, I said (M.P.)

  14. No one ever doubted (A.N.B.-B.).

  15. Now, Gentlemen, we live (J.G.B.-W.)

  16. Poetry is the perfect (J.D.D.)

  17. She contracted an insane hatred (M.P.)

  18. Sir, it is not for any man (J.G.B.-W.) (J.D.D.)

  19. Sir, we have heard 96. That is the character (M.P.)

  20. The jests of Lord Palmerston (J.D.D.).

  21. The manner of its first coming (M.P.).

  22. The protracted war (A.N.B.-B.).

  23. The truth is that teachers of swimming (T.F.H.)

IOI. There is no country in Europe (T.F.H.)

  1. These opponents of ours (J.G.B.-W.)

  2. They consulted therefore (T.F.H.)

  3. They do not put up monuments (M.P.) have no lawyers (J.D.D.)

  4. They 106. Travelling really does open the eyes (T.F.H.)

  5. We, Sir, have long since emerged (J.G.B.-W.)

  6. Well, Felicity got tired (J.D.D.)

  7. Well, Sir, said the philosopher (A.N.B.-B.)

  8. What can be more monstrous (J.D.D.)

  9. What do you think of yourself? (J.D.D.)

  10. When I had put an end (M.P.) .

  11. When, without the bitterness (J.D.D.)

  12. Willoughby did his duty (J.D.D.)

  13. With a hardihood (J.G.B.-w.)

  14. You now see to what dangers (A.N.B.-B.)

  15. You who are here (M.P.)

GREEK VERSE

  1. And then the deed (M.P.).

  2. Be patient, gentle Nell (J.D.D.)

  3. Behold for love (T.F.H.)

  4. Birds of God (C.M.B.)

  5. Dauphin, I am by birth (J.D.D.)

  6. Even such is Time (C.M.B.)

  7. First Artemis (T.F.H.)

  8. Foul devil (M.P.)

  9. Go forth and conquer! (M.P.)

  10. I am the king of Hell (J.D.D.)

  11. I bended unto me (T.F.H.)

  12. I bring fresh showers (C.M.B.)

  13. I was thy son (M.P.)

  14. I, who am dead (C.M.B.)

  15. I wish I had had Apollo (J.D.D.)

  16. If you go on thus (M.P.)

  17. In Xanadu (C.M.B.)

  18. Know, then, O king (M.P.)

  19. Lady, I bring no gauds (C.M.B.)

  20. My husband hate me! (J.G.B.-W.)

  21. Needs must I like it well (c.M.B.)

  22. Now marvellous (C.M.B.)

  23. O mighty Caesar (C.M.B.)

  24. O thou that swing’st (T.F.H.)

  25. One day nigh wearie (J.D.D.)

  26. Out, dog! (J.D.D.)

  27. Since first I saw your face (C.M.B.)

  28. That sight some God (M.P.)

  29. That handkerchief (C.M.B.)

  30. The accursed power (C.M.B.)

  31. The glories of our blood (J.D.D.).

  32. Then the Weder-folk (C.M.B.)

  33. Therfore, syr Launcelot (C.M.B.)

  34. Titanum suboles (C.M.B.)

  35. Under yonder beech-tree (T.F.H.)

  36. What is our life? (C.M.B.)

  37. Wayward, elusive, sly (T.F.H.)

  38. What 'twas weak to do (M.P.)

  39. When the hounds of spring (C.M.B.)

  40. When you’re lying awake (T.F.H.)

  41. Who now persists (M.P.) .

  42. Your coming, Friends (J.D.D.)

19

Many thanks Sean! An excellent read. I found that I had quite a lot of sympathy with the author’s views, as old-fashioned as they might be nowadays. Cheers, Chad