“Brittanian” is my name for an imaginary language that exists in the alternate universe where the Romans successfully conquered the Germanic tribes, instead of being defeated by Arminius in the Teutoberg Forest. It has an Old English base, and was very heavily influenced by Latin, much like modern English was heavily influenced by French after the Norman invasion.
What do you think the Brittanian language would be like? I have read about dead languages, living languages and even constructed languages. Has anybody ever addressed the idea of alternate universe languages?
I would imagine that English would be very much more watered down from Latin than it is now. You can look at Latin words like “occasio(n-)” and you have English “occasion”, which is not such a change… but then look at words that English borrowed a really long time ago and we have words like “poor” from “pauper” and “nice” from “nescius” (that’s actually a funny little etymological tidbit 
).
[quote author=benissimus link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7622 date=1065129292]
I would imagine that English would be very much more watered down from Latin than it is now. You can look at Latin words like “occasio(n-)” and you have English “occasion”, which is not such a change… but then look at words that English borrowed a really long time ago and we have words like “poor” from “pauper” and “nice” from “nescius” (that’s actually a funny little etymological tidbit ).
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Yes, but a lot of the Latin that English inherited came indirectly, from French. Would it look different if inherited directly?
It’s quite possible that there wouldn’t have been much influence at all. How much of a direct Latin influence is there on Welsh?
Maybe it would be used like English is in India - a 2nd language used as a way of getting around a lot of dialects and minority group languages. In fact that is how Latin was used in Europe for many hundreds of years.
I am trying to read A History of the English Language by Baugh & Cable when I have time. It states that there was in fact a extensive intercourse between the Romans and the Germanic tribes, whose languages eventually became the core of old English, and several hundred words of Latin origin are found in these Germanic languages, a borrowed termed the “Zero period”.
So perhaps the Brittanian language wouldn’t be much different.
In such an alternate universe, it might be possible to call English a Romance language. (It’s considered a Germanic language right now, isn’t it?) I think it would probably be much closer to Latin.
The story of Hermann 
was one of my favorites as a child-the book still opens right to it.
[quote author=Keesa link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7651 date=1065183502]
In such an alternate universe, it might be possible to call English a Romance language. (It’s considered a Germanic language right now, isn’t it?) I think it would probably be much closer to Latin.
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That’s what I was thinking. Correct me if I am wrong here, but the major existing Romance languages are French, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, and Rumanian. Rumanian territory was Slavic, French was Gallic (Celtic), Italian was Italic (duh), and Spanish and Portuguese were what, also Celtic? I know that Spanish was taken over by the Visigoths at one time, and Gothic is a Germanic language. French were taken over by the Franks, who were also Germanic, right? Or not? My knowledge is fuzzy here.
Or would Brittanian sound more like one of the minor languages like Romansch?
I don’t know what Spain and Portugal are considered, but I don’t think it’s Celtic. I believe Spanish has a heavy Moorish influence, but I’m not sure there.
I’m reading a book (well, a set of books, actually) about the history of England. I understand that it has some bits about the development of the language a little farther on, but I haven’t gotten there yet. I"ll let you know when I do!
(Also, thanks for starting this thread. Fascinating!)
I don’t know what was spoken in what is now Romania before the Romans came, but I have heard that in some ways Romanian is much closer to Latin than Italian is, because the Romanians took to the mountains and managed to avoid the incoming Slavs.
I believe the pre-Roman language in Spain and Portugal was Celtiberian, but how exactly it’s related to the Celtic languages I don’t know.
The Franks and Visigoths were Germanic-speaking peoples, yes. However, the Germanic influence on the French language seems to have been slight, and confined to a few vocabulary items. No doubt Skylax can tell us more.
Spanish, as Keesa said, was more influenced by Arabic, brought in by the Moors.
There was a language of Gaul called Gaullish or Gallish but then it was replaced by latin and the tribes spread and that language came to britain making the universal brittanian language (it’s called many things) and after this welsh scottish etc. came about.
I was talking to the welsh teacher the other day about it
[quote author=Keesa link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7681 date=1065221145]
I don’t know what Spain and Portugal are considered, but I don’t think it’s Celtic. I believe Spanish has a heavy Moorish influence, but I’m not sure there.
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I’m not saying that Spanish is Celtic. It is obviously a Romance language. I’m just saying that at one time, before Spanish evolved, the Iberian peninsula was settled by people who spoke a Celtic language. How much (if at all) the Celtic language influenced what became Spanish, I don’t know.
And yes, Arabic influenced Spanish, but it’s still obviously a Romance language, and my superficial knowledge of Spanish (two years in high school a long time ago) would lead me to conclude that Arabic’s influence was rather superficial. Place names, loan words, and such.
[quote author=Keesa link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7681 date=1065221145]
I’m reading a book (well, a set of books, actually) about the history of England. I understand that it has some bits about the development of the language a little farther on, but I haven’t gotten there yet. I"ll let you know when I do!
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What I know so far is that the traditional story is that Angles, Saxons and Jutes, all speakers of Germanic languages, came to Britain. The modern theory that I’ve read is that this was probably Angles, Saxons, Ripuarian Franks, and Frisians, but still all Germanic speakers. Later came Danes, speaking their dialect of Old Norse. And their were occasional raids by Norse-speaking Vikings, but these probably didn’t affect the language too much. Later, after 1066, came the Normans, who spoke an early form of French (although the Normans were originally also Vikings!)
[quote author=Episcopus link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7713 date=1065285499]
There was a language of Gaul called Gaullish or Gallish but then it was replaced by latin and the tribes spread and that language came to britain making the universal brittanian language (it’s called many things) and after this welsh scottish etc. came about.
I was talking to the welsh teacher the other day about it
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Are you talking about British Gaelic or something like it? Because I think you’re talking about something completely different than I am. The “Brittanian” language that I’m talking about is an imaginary one, that would have evolved if the Old Germanic languages that evolved into English were heavily influenced by Latin.
I understood that yours was imaginary but I was just saying assuming that I had something relevant to add. heh clearly I didn’t but “ibi itis” - there you go ;D
me interficio!
[quote author=Episcopus link=board=6;threadid=764;start=0#7747 date=1065381600]
I understood that yours was imaginary but I was just saying assuming that I had something relevant to add. heh clearly I didn’t but “ibi itis” - there you go ;D
me interficio!
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Sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude. I thought that you thought that by “Brittanian”, I was referring to Brythonic (Brittonic) Gaelic. While not directly relevant to what I was asking, the question of Brythonic Gaelic is interesting. Why didn’t it have more effect than it did on English? Is this because the Anglo-Saxons so completely displaced Celtic speakers from most of England?
Yes, and also the Anglo-Saxons where the rulers, no one can get very far in life if all they can speak is the language of the ‘losers’ or if they sound like they’re descended from the ‘losers’. Something you may have to think about when making your language… how comes Latin didn’t just replace the old language, how did Latin influence the language? Through trade or domination?
Quite true. This is probably why Welsh and other Gaelic languages have disappeared (or almost disappeared) in Great Britain.
Well, I don’t actually intend to create a conlang any time soon, if ever. I would think that a passable knowledge of both Latin and Old Saxon would be prerequisites to something like this, and I have neither. But framing questions to myself this way helps me to think about language formation, which I find interesting in and of itself.
I’m thinking in terms of an analogy; Latin is to Brittanian what Old French is to Modern English. So for whatever reason Old French didn’t replace Old English, that’s why Latin didn’t replace Old Saxon in this imaginary past. And instead of Normans speaking Old French coming into England, it would have been Latin-speaking Romans coming into England (or perhaps even into Saxony before the Saxons emigrated to England), so the Latin would have influenced the old language through domination.
Yes, and also the Anglo-Saxons where the rulers, no one can get very far in life if all they can speak is the language of the ‘losers’ or if they sound like they’re descended from the ‘losers’.
And yet we speak something that is more allied to (Anglo-Saxon) English than (Norman) French, so there must be more to it than that. Incidentally, there is a theory that the Celtic influence on English, particularly in vocabulary, is much greater than is generally recognised, simply because when the compilers of the OED were writing etymologies Celtic languages were the last place they looked for etymons. When I read the article on this, I thought there might well have been an effect, but not as great as the writer wanted to make out.
I’ve wondered about that. Why wouldn’t Celtic have influenced English more? I don’t know much yet, but so far there don’t seem to be many similarities. And where do the Celtic languages come from? I assume that there was a heavy Viking influence, but I don’t even know that for sure.
My theory is that the Anglo-Saxon speakers literally displaced the Celtic speakers; they were either killed or ran off to places like Wales and Scotland. This is sheer conjecture on my part, though. I don’t know enough about that part of history to be sure.
The Celtic languages were quite widespread on mainland Europe at one time, and probably reached England from pre-Roman France. The Vikings spoke old Norse, which is a Germanic language, so Celtic is not directly related the the language of the Vikings. There may have been some Old Norse influence on Norman French, though. “Norman” is a contraction of “Norse man”; the Norman ruling class were originally Vikings.