Text for Learning Greek and Latin in Tandem

Salvete, omnes!

I’m wondering if there is a text (either in print or ebook) that offers the ability to learn Latin and Greek side by side. I studied Latin in college a few years back and I’m currently refreshing my memory with Wheelock. (I used a different text then.) Sadly, I did not learn Greek, and I’m planning on using Mastronarde and other resources to correct that deficiency. I’d like to be able to translate my elementary Greek into Latin and vice versa, and though I suppose I don’t need a formal text for that, I was wondering if such a thing exists. Many thanks to those who can point me in the right direction.

Valete!

I would be surprised if any kind of dual Latin-Greek course has been written in recent history.

However, most students would study Latin from a young age, and after having attained proficiency in it, they would later proceed to Greek. Because of this, there are surely some Renaissance texts and later (probably through the 19th century) that are introductory Greek courses written in Latin. These courses would presume a knowledge of Latin and teach Greek on that model. I don’t imagine there are any that attempt to teach both languages at the same time through some other medium (like English).

Depending on the strength of your Latin, you could poke around Google Books for some of these courses. However, except for the novelty factor, it’s probably not worth the effort when you’re just starting out learning Greek. The teaching methods and printing of most of these texts are probably not conducive to a modern reader. You’d definitely want to avoid texts where the Greek is presented with many ligatures (short-hand symbols to represent common combinations of letters). These were common in their day, but they are not used now and pretty much indecipherable for the contemporary Greek student.

In contrast, there are good contemporary courses for both languages in English that you could complete individually. If you wanted to cross pollinate, you could practice translating a sentence of Latin into Greek and vice versa.

There are comparative grammars of Greek and Latin, but they aren’t really intended for learning the language so much as linguistic/philological reference and investigation (I’m thinking of the New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin)

Here is a random Jesuit book I found from 1727: Institutionem linguae graecae
You’ll notice on page (x) there is a list of the ligatures used in the text. You’ll also notice that the teaching method/printing isn’t exactly user friendly.
Here’s another edition(ligatures on page 7).
Here’s a Greek grammar by the humanist Melanchthon.

Not practical, but fun I suppose.

Thesaurus,

Many thanks for your reply and suggestions. I felt such a book did not exist, and I agree with your thoughts that translating from one language to the other as I learn would be best. Such an exercise would be most fruitful, I feel, for working toward “fluency” in both languages.

A comparative grammar would be interesting, but at this point in my studies, the philological text as you suggested is outside my current realm of interest and concern.

Many thanks again.

Once you’re into the grammar of Greek & Latin a bit, there’s an interesting book entitled Comparative Greek & Latin Syntax by Moore (London, 1957). I don’t know of anything that starts one in both languages’ grammar right out of the gate, though. I suppose one could use Moore’s syntax in conjunction with independent primers to link your studies together.

Aren’t there interlinear Bibles that have Latin and Greek side by side?

Not that this is what you are asking for, but one might be helpful in some way.

The Greek in the Bible would be Koine, though, whereas a lot of people recommend starting with Homeric, then working your way up to Attic and then Koine. (If, however, you’re interested only in Koine, might as well start with it.)

Are there any online resources, then, for attempting this sort of thing? Translating from one language to the other seems to be the best option thus far, and as I’m only starting Greek, I’ll probably be doing G->L much more than L->G at first. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Just googling around turns up some Greek/Latin bibles, but these tend to be quite antiquated. Here’s one by Erasmus.

I’m sure there are better ones out there. At minimum, you could acquire the Vulgate and the Greek new testament separately, but they you’d have to be on the look out for varying translations and interpretations.

I have a bi-lingual New Testament - the Greek and Latin are on opposite pages, it is great as you can see how the latin has translated the greek text. The greek text is Nestle-Aland 27th edition, and the latin is Vulgate Nova, both have critical apparatus. The title is Novum Testamentum Graece Et Latine if do a search you should be able to find one.

Alex

Along with the NT in Latin and Koine Greek, the Romans translated Classical texts into Latin. Some passages that exist in both the original and the translation. Hopefully some other Textkitter will respond with details, because I can’t quite remember exactly what is extant. There must be a list someplace of all the passages.

Cicero’s works contain some of his translations of Greek. It’s only small bits (and scattered), but some of it exists in the original Greek (a passage from Sophocles’ Trachiniae springs to mind). If you could find a list of what he translates G-to-L, you could work on your own translations and then compare them to Cicero’s. Even with his translations of things that don’t survive in the original would be interesting to study.

Here is a three way French-Greek-Latin dictionary:
http://www.amazon.fr/Lexicon-dictionnaire-Latin-Français-Grec-Jean-Michel-Fontanier/dp/275350752X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304711817&sr=8-1

Tot ingens! :open_mouth:

Have you seen this?

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Comparative_Teaching_of_Old_Greek_and_Latin

Speaking as someone trained in applying the findings of modern linguistic science to teaching foreign languages and as a retired college instructor of English and ESL/EFL, I would have to say that this textbook uses a pedagogical method that makes learning the skill of READING either language extremely difficult. And I assume that most prospective students of Latin or non-modern Greek have reading as their primary goal.

If you wish to learn to read Latin well, I highly recommend the materials of Hans H. Ørberg’s Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata. I am using them for self-study. The exercises, and, wonder of wonders, there are many of them (contrary to the paltry few sentences given in most textbooks), are outstanding from the pedagogical viewpoint of an applied linguistic scientist. Another excellent feature is that the readings form a connected discourse, telling the story of a typical Roman family. And, multas Deo gratias! there are no translation exercises. All is in Latin. A separate Latin-English glossary is available as part of the series. Although the grammar is also presented in Latin as part of the textbook lessons, there is a small book that explains the grammar in English. The presentation of the glossary and grammatical explanations in English as separate booklets instead of their inclusion in the textbook itself also helps the student to focus on learning to read Latin.

Developing translation skills (Latin to English, or even worse, English to Latin) is a waste of time for students who wish to learn to READ in Latin. Of course, if you’re preparing for an exam that requires the ability to translate, then you need to develop such skills. It is unfortunate that various educational systems still require students to translate from Latin to English and even vice-versa as part of their examination process. Who on earth does that nowadays in life outside the Academy? Very few, no doubt.

Now, with regard to learning to read in non-modern Greek (Homeric through Byzantine), I haven’t been able to find any printed materials of the quality of Hans Ørberg’s. Many texts follow the outdated pedagogical tradition of a short text (not connected discourse), a small vocabulary list, grammatical explanations, perhaps one or two exercises dealing with the declension or conjugation of pertinent parts of speech, and two translation exercises (Greek-English, English-Greek). Those I have seen have to be supplemented by exercises prepared by the instructor of the course.

I’m still looking, however. I just ordered Rouse’s Greek Boy: A Reader by W.H.D. Rouse, revised by Anne Mahoney, and Mahoney’s recently published First Greek Course, which accompanies the reader. I hope the combination will be better than Athenaze, which doesn’t present readings that contain enough repetition of grammatical structures to fix them in the mind of the student, à la Ørberg, e.g., Iulius vir Romanus est. Aemilia femina Romana est. Marcus est puer Romanus. Quintus quoque puer Romanus est. Iulia est puella Romana. Marcus et Quintus non viri, sed pueri sunt. Viri sunt Iulius et Medus et Davus. Aemilia et Delia et Syra sunt feminae. Estne femina Iulia? Non femina, sed parva puella est Iulia. (I have omitted the macrons to save time typing.) This very brief excerpt (7 lines of the text) is taken from Lesson Two of Part One (Familia Romana of the Ørberg textbook. All of these characters are presented again and again in different contexts, often in a very humorous fashion, with accompanying helpful illustrations, so that the reader gets to know them well and looks forward to reading more of their adventures. And do you see the repetition of structures using a limited vocabulary that I am looking for in a Greek course? It’s certainly not in Athenaze or any other non-modern Greek textbook I’ve seen.

Has anyone ever seen a prescriptive grammar that uses this method to teach you how to read non-modern Greek? I love it! Lots of reading (121 lines of text in this lesson!) and helpful repetition of the grammatical structures and limited vocabulary (in this lesson, 35 words) that the lesson presents. I’m hoping that Rouse’s Greek Boy does as well. We’ll see. :slight_smile:

Now with regard to learning Greek and Latin in tandem – if your primary goal is to read materials in these languages, then do not waste your time learning how to translate from one language to the other or from Greek/Latin to English and vice-versa. If you wish to read well, you must move beyond the point of decoding. You must become so familiar with the grammatical patterns of the language that you know them almost as well as you do those of English (or your native language). By “familiarity” I mean subconscious recognition of the meaning of the patterns. To acquire this familiarity, I would limit the size of the vocabulary and stick with one author or style of writing until you know him or it well. I have ordered Fairy Tales in Latin: Fabulae Mirabiles to supplement the Ørberg materials. They are amusing and are at a level that I can handle fairly well. They will help me expand my vocabulary and improve my reading skills. So what if they are not in classical Latin. At this early point of my studies, I don’t care. I just want tons of material to read at my level. Read, read, and read – that is my motto. And prose, not poetry. KISS is the word, no? Eventually, I’ll get to the “greats,” but not now.

On the other hand, if you are primarily interested in the study of Greek and Latin as languages – in their phonology, morphology, syntax, etc. – and don’t care about learning to read but only about studying their grammar, then ignore what I have said.

And if you are still interested in developing the skills of translation, set that as a goal for later on, for after you have learned how to read Latin and Greek well. And start with Greek to Latin, not vice-versa. The highly flexible syntax and the nuanced use of particles in Greek make (elegant) translation into that language a terror for anyone who is just learning it. And you should pick a specific period to make it far easier – better even to pick a particular author’s grammatical and stylistic patterns – although even that is difficult if you choose the classical period, because the word order is so mobile. Translating into Koine would be easier, because the grammatical patterns were more fixed then.

Well, I hope this has helped somewhat.

All the best –

Gordon

Gordon, I don’t know whether you are right or wrong, but I absolutely love your conviction. Hehe. We had a meaty discussion a few months back:

http://discourse.textkit.com/t/methods-for-learning-greek/10207/1

It would be fascinating if you could peruse that thread and give us your take on it. Many methods are discussed. I, in particular, would like to know what you think about Schliemann’s method. If you do comment, please put your comments in that thread. Thanks.

JACT’s Reading Greek is not awful in this regard, and better (in my opinion) than
Athenezae. Neither is as good as Ørberg by a loud shout. I’ve heard good things about Christophe Rico’s Πολις, and the sample chapter looked pretty good to me. I’ll let you know what that’s like once it arrives. It is fairly well driven as conversational language and mostly in Greek. There is some French around the edges, but I cannot say how much.

Here’s what we need for Greek:

η μεν Κρητη εστι νησος, η δε Ελλας εστι πατριδα. η Κρητη εστι εν θαλασσᾳ και ο Ροδος. ο γαρ Ροδος εστι νησος. ο τε Λεσβοσ νησος εστι και ο Ροδοσ. ο μεν Ροδος εστι μεγαλοσ, ουκ εστι μεγαλοσ ο Λεσβος.

Or something like that (with tighter vocabulary control–I’ve got three particles going. Ugh). But a lot more. Like 300 pages more. With all grammar explanations in Greek.

But I’m not holding my breath. An editor at Bolchazy-Carducci was very pessimistic about the chances anyone could write an Ørberg style text for Greek. She felt that no one could write Attic Greek well enough to pull the trick off. I worked with her long enough to know that she didn’t just say stuff to be nasty.

I’m doubly not holding my breath because I’ve got a Spanish book modeled on Ørberg’s Lingua Latina. It just isn’t as good. The more language learning materials I see, the more I am in awe of what Ørberg did.

But that’s all off-topic.

On topic, learn Latin. Learn Greek. Seek out good comprehensible input. Don’t worry about translating one to the other. They’re separate languages and merit separate study.

Here’s what we need for Greek:

η μεν Κρητη εστι νησος, η δε Ελλας εστι πατριδα. η Κρητη εστι εν θαλασσᾳ και ο Ροδος. ο γαρ Ροδος εστι νησος. ο τε Λεσβοσ νησος εστι και ο Ροδοσ. ο μεν Ροδος εστι μεγαλοσ, ουκ εστι μεγαλοσ ο Λεσβος.

Or something like that (with tighter vocabulary control–I’ve got three particles going. Ugh). But a lot more. Like 300 pages more.

Paula Saphire made this point long ago, and, I regret to say, it is still true.

{ παλαι μεν ειπεν τουτο Παυλα Σαφιρε, νυν δ’ ετι αληθες εστιν. λυπην ουν πολλην εχω. }

hi markos, have a look at the genders of the islands Ῥόδος and Λέσβος, double-check your use of πατρίς and also check your dative ending of θάλασσα (for this last point you may want to look at my summary of the history of the 1st decl endings here, pgs 8-10: http://www.freewebs.com/mhninaeide/pharrnotes.pdf )

i agree that an immersive book in attic would be great. i remember a fellow aussie wrote about this somewhere on the net, trying to find the article… here it is, the first link on this page: http://jeltzz.com/essays.html

cheers, chad :slight_smile:

Hi, Chad,

Actually I did not write that Greek passage, but was quoting someone else. Still, your corrections are very helpful and I thank you for them. Cheers!

{ χαιρε και συ Χαδ,

ταυτην μεν ουν την Ελληνικην περικοπην ουκ εγραψα, αλλος δε. πλην αι σου ορθωσεις λιαν ωφελιμαι εισιν. ευχαριστω δε σοι υπερ τουτων. ερρωσο φιλε μου. }

Points taken. I was doing this more to take a swipe at the notion that it can’t be done than to actually do it. I make no pretension that I could actually do such a thing–after all, I nearly wrote Κρετα. This should also give you a notion of the extent of my knowledge of Greek. :laughing: