In Orberg LLPSI Cap XLIII we have (an extract from Civero De Inventione where he is presenting a demonstration argument in determining the guilt or innocence of the Horatii in the murder of his sister.
It is pretty clear up until this:
Infirmatio est: "Tamen a fratre indemnatam necari non oportuit.
indemnatam is accusative because it follows infinitive, right?
Nevertheless it is not right for the innocent (woman) to be killed by the brother.
Indemnatam is the subject of the passive infinitive necari. That’s why it’s accusative.
Yes but…
Infirmatio est: "Tamen a fratre indemnatam necari non oportuit.
But surely a fratre and necari indicate that this is a sentence in the passive voice and, if it means nevertheless it’s not right for an uncondemned woman to be killed by the brother then necari as a passive verb would take a nominative subject. I was thinking that if the sentence simply was:
Infirmatio est: "Tamen a fratre indemnata necata est. Nevertheless the uncondemned woman was killed.. that would be OK? and what requires the acc. is the oportuit plus infinitive …
Am I making this too complicated…?
Oportet is an impersonal verb.
http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.13:1218.lewisandshort
Indemnatam isn’t the subject of oportet – it’s the subject of necari.
Tamen a fratre indemnatam necari non oportuit.
Yes but necari is passive. So shouldn’t its subject (I do know that it’s indemnatam) be nominative rather than accusative?
This would make sense to me if it used necare rather than necari.
In the active voice: Tamen frater indemnatam necare non oportuit.
But as it’s killed by her brother and necari (passive voice) I can’t reckon on why it’s accusative.
How does a passive verb (necari) take an accusative as subject?
It’s Femina noluit necari a fratre suo not Feminam noluit necari a fratre suo ?
The same question occurs to me at the end.
Ex quo iudicatio fit: 'cum Horatia fratrum mortem neglegeret, hostium lugeret, fratris et populi Romani victoria non gauderet, oportueritne eam a fratre indemnatam necari?
By which the judgement can be made: then Horatia ignored the death of her brother, of the enemy mourning, not rejoicing in the victory of her brother and the Roman people, was it not fitting that she, uncondemned, be killed.
By the way, does indemnatam mean something like ‘summarily’ or ‘without due process’?
But again I can’t see why a passive verb has an accusative subject.
But again I can’t see why a passive verb has an accusative subject.
The subject of an infinitive is normally accusative.
Allen & Greenough sec. 455.2:
- With impersonal verbs and expressions that take the Infinitive as an apparent subject, the personal subject of the action may be expressed—
- By an Accusative expressed as the subject of the infinitive or the object of the impersonal:—
“sī licet vīvere eum quem Sex. Naevius nōn volt ” (Quinct. 94) , if it is allowed a man to live against the will of Sextus Nœvius.
“nōnne oportuit praescīsse mē ante ” (Ter. And. 239) , ought I not to have known beforehand?
“ōrātōrem īrāscī minimē decet ” (Tusc. 4.54) , it is particularly unbecoming for an orator to lose his temper.
“pudēret mē dīcere ” (N. D. 1.109) , I should be ashamed to say.
“cōnsilia ineunt quōrum eōs in vestīgiō paenitēre necesse est ” (B. G. 4.5) , they form plans for which they must at once be sorry.[*] Note.-- Libet , placet , and vīsum est take the dative only; > oportet , pudet , piget , and generally decet , the accusative only; > licet and necesse est take either case.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+455&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001
indemnata = in- + damnata, “not condemned,” from damno, damnare, i.e., she had not been adjudicated guilty of anything.
Many thanks Qimmik. I will study accordingly.
Many thanks for your enormous patience.
Paul
Great questions and answers! I was equally baffled by that passive + accusative business until Qimmik sorted it out for us. Thanks for sharing, both of you.
I noticed two similar examples from Cicero at this great site: https://www.loebclassics.com/
[EDit: Not so great. I forgot most things are not free on the Internet anymore. My ‘trial period’ ran out very quickly.]
From De Inventione, I:
“At non,” inquiet adversarius, “abs te filio matrem necari oportuit; potuit enim sine tuo scelere illius factum puniri.”
“But,” the opponent will say, “your mother ought not to have been killed by you, her son; her act could have been punished without your committing a crime.”
From Pro Publio Quinctio, IV:
Cum aeris alieni aliquantum esset relictum, quibus nominibus pecuniam Romae curari oporteret, auctionem in Gallia P. hic Quinctius Narbone se facturum esse proscribit earum rerum, quae ipsius erant privatae.
Since a certain number of debts had been left unpaid which had to be settled at Rome, my client had a notice put up in Gaul that he would sell some private property of his at Narbo.
Incidentally, you can browse through umpteen examples of Cicero’s use of ‘oportere’ here:
http://www.slu.edu/colleges/AS/languages/classical/latin/tchmat/grammar/vocabulary/wdoportcic.html
Int