Subordination: AcI and indirect questions

Salvete!

Following Seneca’s advice I started working through a prose composition book (Milena Minkova’s ‘Introduction to Latin Prose Composition’).

I would greatly appreciate any corrections and suggestions to the sentences I wrote.

Subordination: Aci and indirect questions

AcI:
Epikur dixit voluptatem summum bonum esse, sed Stoici virtutem magis aestimantverunt.
Cato scripsit Graecos effimninatos esse.
Aeneam Didonem reliquisse Virgilius narravit.
Me copepisse litteras scribere gaudeo.

Marcus timet sororem suam tiristem fore.
Iubet imperator templum praeclarum aedificari.
Constat libertatem maximi momenti esse et fore.
Laetor mox vobiscum conventurum esse.

Indirect questions:

Marcus rogat quis sis.
Quaero quid edere velis.
Interrogasne cur tam stultus sis?
Cupio scire a quo venires.

Interrogo Marcum cur pugnaturus sit.
Quaero te quot annos habeas.

Marcus rogavit quis esses.
Quaesivi quid edere velles.
Interrogavistine cur tam stultus esses?
Cupivi scire a quo venisses?

Interrogavi Marcum cur pugnaturus esses.
Quearo te quot annos haberes.

Curate, ut maxime valeatis corpore menteque.

Hi

Its probably easiest if you also post the English sentences you are translating for those without the textbook as that simplifies the task.

It may be obvious to others but presumably Aci stands for Accusative and infinitive? There seem to be some typos too

Epikur Epicurus

effimninatos?

copepisse?

Thank’s for dropping by! : - )

In fact there are no translation excercises in Minkova’s book, so I figured I just make some sentences up for each construction, before I move to the more advanced composition excercises. I am sorry about the AcI thing. Yes, I meant accusativus cum infinitivo, apperently the abbreviation is only common in Germany.
I translated my sentences to English. I hope this helps.


AcI:
Epicurus dixit voluptatem summum bonum esse, sed Stoici virtutem magis aestimantverunt. /
Epicure said that lust is the highest good, the Stoics, however, valued virtue more.

Cato scripsit Graecos effiminatos esse. / Cato wrote that the Greeks were effeminate.
Aeneam Didonem reliquisse Virgilius narravit. / Virgil told (us) that Aeneas has abandonded Dido.
Me coepisse litteras scribere gaudeo. / I am glad that I have started to write latin texts.

Marcus timet sororem suam tiristem fore. / Marcus is afraid that his sister will be sad.
Iubet imperator templum praeclarum aedificari. / The emperor orders that a splendid temple shall be build.
Constat libertatem maximi momenti esse et fore. / It’s a fact that liberty is and will be of supreme importance.
Laetor mox vobiscum conventurum esse. / I am glad that I will meet you soon.

Indirect questions:

Marcus rogat quis sis. / Marcus asks who you are.
Quaero quid edere velis. / I want to know what you would like to eat.
Interrogasne cur tam stultus sis? / Are you asking me why you are so stupid?
Cupio scire a quo venires. / I want to know from where you came from.

Interrogo Marcum cur pugnaturus sit. / I ask Marcus why he is going to fight.
Quaero te quot annos habeas. / I ask you how old you are.

Marcus rogavit quis esses. / Marcus asked who you are.
Quaesivi quid edere velles. / I asked what you want to eat.
Interrogavistine cur tam stultus esses? / Did you ask me why you are that stupid?
Cupivi scire a quo venisses. / I wanted to know were you came from.

Interrogavi Marcum cur pugnaturus esses. / I asked Marcus why he was going to fight.
Quaero te quot annos haberes. / I asked you how old you are.


Sorry about the typos, and I hope my translations to English are at least ok..

I forgot that there are no exercises in this book which does mean that you have to make up your own. Thats extra work especially if English is not your first language. But perhaps we can all learn from this. Some quick thoughts on the first part.

Epicurus dixit voluptatem summum bonum esse, sed Stoici virtutem magis aestimantverunt. /
Epicure said that lust is the highest good, the Stoics, however, valued virtue more.

I think lust in German has a less pejorative meaning than it has in at least in some uses in English. Pleasure would be more usual here and voluptas the correct latin word.

Cato scripsit Graecos effiminatos esse. / Cato wrote that the Greeks were effeminate.

The adjective is effeminatus from effemino. But perhaps it would be better to use mollis, e. Thats the word most often found in Latin literature for describing the supposed effeminacy of non-Romans.

Marcus timet sororem suam tiristem fore. / Marcus is afraid that his sister will be sad.

“tristem”. Verbs of fearing have their own rules which you can no doubt look up in your book. If you are working on simple acc and inf sentences they are best avoided at this stage.

Constat libertatem maximi momenti esse et fore. / It’s a fact that liberty is and will be of supreme importance.

This seems to be complicated by “maximi momenti”. It looks like you are using the genitive here to literally translate the English or did you intend this as the genitive of value and price (magni facere aliquid - to value something highly)?

The lack of exercises in Minkova’s book is a real problem for people studying on their own.

I suggest that rather than making up exercises yourself you use, at first at least, those in North and Hillard which is freely available as a download. You can use the explanations and examples in Minkova’s book in conjunction with North and Hillard. For example the accusative and infinitive construction you have used here is covered on pages 38-45 as “indirect statement”. There are lots of sentences for practice ranging from the basic to more complex challenges involving the tense of the infinitive. Indirect questions are covered in pages 88-95 again with a lot of exercises.

By all means make up your own examples but I think there is some merit in using existing exercises from North and Hillard in combination with the explanations given by Minkova. You may also profit from seeing how N&H explain things. I think it will in the long run be more efficient. A key is also available so you could check you own work and need only post where you can’t understand the answer or you have an alternative you wanted to check.

Thank you very much for looking over my sentences. It is greatly appreciated. :- )

I think I got confused translating from latin to english. You are right, of course.

Cato scripsit Graecos effiminatos esse. / Cato wrote that the Greeks were effeminate.

The adjective is eff> e> minatus from effemino. But perhaps it would be better to use mollis, e. Thats the word most often found in Latin literature for describing the supposed effeminacy of non-Romans.

That’s interesting, thanks!

Constat libertatem maximi momenti esse et fore. / It’s a fact that liberty is and will be of supreme importance.

This seems to be complicated by “maximi momenti”. It looks like you are using the genitive here to literally translate the English or did you intend this as the genitive of value and price (magni facere aliquid - to value something highly)?

Doesn’t ‘magni momenti esse’ mean ‘to be important’?
I checked it in Smith and Hall:

importance:

    I. Of things; weight, concernment:
        1. mōmentum (that which inclines things one way or the other): to be of great i. (to a particular object): magno m. (dat.) esse ad …, Cic. Inv. 2, 26, 77: or gen., Cic. Fin. 4, 17, 47



The lack of exercises in Minkova’s book is a real problem for people studying on their own.

I suggest that rather than making up exercises yourself you use, at first at least, those in North and Hillard which is freely available as a download. You can use the explanations and examples in Minkova’s book in conjunction with North and Hillard. For example the accusative and infinitive construction you have used here is covered on pages 38-45 as “indirect statement”. There are lots of sentences for practice ranging from the basic to more complex challenges involving the tense of the infinitive. Indirect questions are covered in pages 88-95 again with a lot of exercises.

By all means make up your own examples but I think there is some merit in using existing exercises from North and Hillard in combination with the explanations given by Minkova. You may also profit from seeing how N&H explain things. I think it will in the long run be more efficient. A key is also available so you could check you own work and need only post where you can’t understand the answer or you have an alternative you wanted to check.

Thank you very much for your suggestion. I certainly see your point that an answer key would be helpful and I don’t want to presume that your time or motivation to correct my sentences is limitless. On the contrary I greatly appreciate it that you took the time to read and comment upon them. Apart from that, why do you think that using the translation excercises from North and Hillard would be better than making up my own sentences (or say, rewriting some dialoges into indirect speech, etc.)? (Say if I found somebody else to correct my sentences.) I am asking because I got the impression that both Minkova as well as most foreign language teachers I know seem somewhat weary of translation as an means to improve language skill (Surely it works, but at least here people are moving away from it and giving more weight to different approaches. I do get that Latin is not modern language with a great pool of spoken native content, speakers, and so on and that might necessitate a different aproach to learning the languge, but I am unsure about the details. Hence my question.)

Thanks for your reply.

What concerned me was not the meaning of the words but the case. It seemed to me that “magni momenti” was genitive and therefore the sentence lacked an object. So perhaps “rem magni momenti” might be better. This is what I had in mind when I asked whether you had the genitive of value in mind here. Perhaps others will coment if I am wrong here and rem can be understood in the context.

This highlights the difficulty of writing one’s own sentences because of course you have grasped the essential issue of indirect statements but have introduced another grammatical point which distracts from practicing the thing you wish to concentrate on.

Apart from that, why do you think that using the translation excercises from North and Hillard would be better than making up my own sentences (or say, rewriting some dialoges into indirect speech, etc.)? (Say if I found somebody else to correct my sentences.) I am asking because I got the impression that both Minkova as well as most foreign language teachers I know seem somewhat weary of translation as an means to improve language skill (Surely it works, but at least here people are moving away from it and giving more weight to different approaches. I do get that Latin is not modern language with a great pool of spoken native content, speakers, and so on and that might necessitate a different aproach to learning the languge, but I am unsure about the details. Hence my question.)

I would turn to the reply I made to your initial post about improving written style.

"Prose composition books are useful because they review grammar and assist in reading texts by making what is passively known more a part of your active knowledge. The problem with free composition is that your approach is not going to be structured and you will probably be using only constructions with which you are already familiar.

The kind of free composition I think you are interested in is an end goal and you shouldn’t confuse the means with the ends. North and Hillard and Bradley are a means to get to a place where you can write better Latin not an end in themselves."

Perhaps I am labouring under a misapprehension? Did you write these latin sentences first in Latin and then translate them into English? Well done if you can compose in latin without any act of translation - I am not sure you need my help :smiley: . If however you thought of what you wanted to say in German/English and then produced the latin then I dont understand your reluctance to use readymade sentences that someone has thought about over their teaching career (like North and Hillard) which give practice in the area you want to study.

I dont have Minkova’s book and have only looked at a few pages on Amazon. Unfortunately the classics library I use is closed because of the pandemic so I am not able to look at it nor do I feel like buying it. But I dont see that what she is offering is much different from older writers.

The review I referred you to says:

"The grammatical review is mostly concerned with syntax and excludes accidence, with which users of this book are presumably quite comfortable. The grammar is prescriptive rather than descriptive; Minkova’s aim is clearly to teach the reader how to write correct, classical or rather classicizing (for more on my use of this term see below) Latin prose, without distracting them with diachronic, generic or socio-linguistic variations. The manner and order of presentation are similar to those of traditional composition textbooks like Bradley’s Arnold, but Minkova tends to be more concise. The language is thoroughly up-to-date (Minkova’s English is impeccable and accessible throughout, and readers would never notice that it is not her native language), a boon to those who are not fond of Victorian archaisms. "

I posted the conclusion of the review which ends: “Thus graduate students and professional scholars may find it more useful than undergraduates, but the more motivated of the latter can profit from it as well. This book is also cross-referenced in the Readings and Exercises in Latin Prose Composition by Minkova and Tunberg, which has tons of (fairly challenging) exercises and is its logical complement or continuation.”

So Minkova has published some exercises which might accompany her book. Even following her approach there is no escaping from translation exercise!

I dont want to get involved in a discussion of what’s the best way to learn Latin. The answer to that must be based on your interests and motivation. There are plenty of threads on this forum where these arguments have been aired.

I advise you to take a practical approach. Studying alone you need to make the maximum use of available resources. Try the indirect sentences in North and Hillard or the continuous passages on p 45-47. What is there to lose? Apply Minkova’s explanations to the exercises there. You can also make up your own examples if you fell you need extra practice. Always keep in mind that you end goal is free composition as you work through the exercises!

To return to my musical analogy if you want to play pieces you have to practice studies and scales.

Finally you are not presuming on anyone’s time here! People are always happy to help each other. Thats what the forum is for.

Hi Lambda,

I’m not a grammarian (we had a couple of really good ones, but they haven’t been around for a while!), but I think this may be one of those somewhat infrequent cases where you find similar usages in English and Latin. Both Cicero and Livy employ this use of the genitive to modify a noun or other substantive. Cicero uses it in in Vatinium 4.9: " id est maximi momenti et ponderis, of the greatest moment, Cic. Vatin. 4, 19". Livy uses it frequently:“exponunt, se tentāsse etiam haud magni momenti finitimarum gentium auxilia, Liv. 10, 16, 5” or " inpensam in rem maximi ad omnia momenti facere, id. 43, 23, 8" or Cicero again in " nullius momenti aliquid putare, of no moment, unimportant, Cic. Vatin. 1, 1". More often than not, as you well know, it doesn’t work out quite so neatly as it did here! Using the genitive to denote a quality can only be done when that quality is modified by an adjective; also, certain adjectives of quantity (e.g. magni, parvi, tanti, etc.)can be used by themselves in the genitive to express an indefinite value, so we have to be careful when we use the genitive this way.

Smith & Hall’s dictionary is a great resource and it’s an excellent way to find appropriate Latin equivalents for English expressions. The only drawback is that the English expressions are from the Victorian era. Fortunately, many of those expressions are still in use today. Normally, when I find an entry in Smith & Hall, I go one more step and look up the word or words in Lewis & Short or if the word is between A-P, I check the Thesaurus Linguae Latinae to see if I can find any citations that directly relate to how I want to express an idea. Someday, I’d love to own a copy of the Oxford Latin Dictionary, but I’m just going to have to watch and wait for a good deal.

Seneca has given you some excellent advice on how to proceed with composition and I think it’s much more efficient to use N&H rather than devise your own practice sentences. I think it’s also important to conduct a focussed, systematic revision, which is something that N&H can provide. I haven’t used Minkova, but judging from the review, it sounds worthwhile to use it perhaps as a primary textbook with N&H or Minkova’s own book with exercises as a resource for practice sentences. As Seneca points out, this is all a means to an end. If we want to write like a Roman, we must learn (as best we can) to think like a Roman (consider the periodic sentence!) and that takes a lot of practice.

Lambda wrote:
Constat libertatem maximi momenti esse et fore. / It’s a fact that liberty is and will be of supreme importance.

Having looked over my previous post, I realise I haven’t really addressed the question of whether or not rem is required, either explicitly or by implication. Firstly, what would be the direct statement? I believe it’s “libertas maximi momenti est et erit” or to round it out a little, “libertas est maximi momenti et sic semper erit”, just as we have Cicero’s “id est maximi momenti et ponderis”. In Cicero’s statement “id” refers back to the previous clause " boni viri quid dicant" (let good men say (what they think)). So I don’t think we need rem explicitly, but I think a case can be made for rem being implied.

Thanks very much Aetos for answering what was essentially my question. I agree that on the basis of the precedents and thinking further about what the direct statement would be you are right rem is not required.

A helpful and full reply as always.

In a way these exercises are useful in that they make one think about Latin syntax. None of the sentences above read even remotely as if they could have been written by a contemporary of Cicero’s. They are modern English phrases put into Latin. That’s not really Latin IMO.

I guess this is just one way of looking at it. There are people (not many) who are into speaking Latin to each other, which I think is great for your brains, but not necessarily for your Latin.

What I used to do, long time ago, is hunt for previous generation exercise books in second hand book stores and reuse those.

As the decades have passed these have become really rare.

Have a look at these which include a few exercise books which maybe what you are looking for. At £3.95 doesn’t exactly break the bank. :slight_smile:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LEARN-LATIN-150-BOOKS-ON-DVD-LANGUAGE-COURSE-LESSONS-READ-WRITE-STUDY-GRAMMAR/164073087926?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Thank you very much Seneca for your reply and to you Aetos for clearing up the ‘magni momenti’ question.

@Seneca: Yes, I did write the sentences (or the texts I posted in the composition board) just in Latin (without making a German translation before hand). The only translation I made was from Latin to English after you suggested it might be helpful to have a translation to correct the sentences. Hence my reluctance / asking for clarification what the benefits of translating compared to just writing sentences are. (Regarding a more structures approach I would completle agree with you that practising all the important constructions (in a more structured way than just writing stuff) is highly benifical at my level. The second Minkova book by the way completle omits translation in favor of reworking texts (say turning a passage from direct speech to indirect speech, … ) or free composition (about a certain writing prompt).

I will work on my on my own for a while and will get back to you if I’ll get stuck somewhere.
Gratias plurimas vobis ago. Curate, ut maxime valeatis!

Good luck with you project.

You maybe interested in this review of “Leigh, Andrew. Latin Prose Composition: A Guide from GCSE to A Level and Beyond. London; New York: Bloomsbury, 2019. vi, 236 p. £14.99 (pb). ISBN 9781350048034.”
which I have just seen: https://mailchi.mp/bmcreview.org/bmcr-20200429schrder-onleigh-latin-prose-composition-a-guide-from-gcse-to-a-level-and-beyond?e=111f887d0e

The review is written from the point of view of the experience of teaching prose composition in Germany. The reviewer mentions two books which might be used alongside Leigh’s book: Christoph Catrein, Andreas Spal, Lateinische Stilübungen für Studienanfänger, Dortmund 2018 and Lothar Willms, Lateinische Stilübungen. Ein Arbeitsbuch mit Texten aus Cäsar und Cicero, Göttingen 2017. I wonder whether you know these books?

At the risk of being repetitive I think that translating sentences in say North and Hillard is a good way of learning and practicing particular grammatical constructions. Free composition is something that would come afterwards when one’s grasp of those constructions is established on a firm basis. When one studies on one’s own one should ultimately be guided by one’s personal interests and enthusiasms.