Subjunctive chart?

Greek Learning Greek
1

For other tenses a textbook would say:

fut ind pass
Singular
I shall be taught
you will be taught
he/she/it will be taught
Plural
we shall be taught
you will be taught
they will be taught

What’s the best way to think of these for subjunctives. I read that the first person aor subj act is:

let me teach
let us teach

Is there a simple way to think of it for second and third person, similar to the fut ind pass example?

Cheers

2

Would these work?
may you [never desert your post/friends/oath, etc.]
may her [memory live forever, soul rest in peace, etc.]
may he [always be an example to . . .]

ISTM this form is common in English prayers, exhortations, and so on.

3

This is an apparently simple question which doesnt really have a simple answer.

The following pages from the Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek gives an overview of the use of the subjunctive. As you will see some uses will correspond to the English sentences cited.

So your “let us” formulation works when the subjunctive is in a main clause and a “hortatory” sense is intended. But your formulation won’t help much in subordinate clauses. If you look at the examples given it might help you to understand the range of meaning this mood can have.

If you have more questions about this I am sure everyone will try and help.

4

Here’s what I have about subjunctives (various sources):

Subjunctive Mood

The subjunctive mood indicates the speaker’s attitude, typically used to express various states of unreality such as: wish, emotion, possibility, judgment, opinion, obligation, or action that has not yet occurred.

Subjunctives occur most often, although not exclusively, in subordinate clauses, particularly that-clauses. Examples: “I suggest that you be careful” and “It is important that she stay by your side.”

In general, Greek verbs are put into the subjunctive mood to indicate that the action is a conceivable one (in the mind of the speaker) but not an actual occurrence. Subjunctives are usually translated with auxiliary verbs (e.g., may, might, would), but it is best not to try to equate each form with a particular translation. The precise meaning always has to be determined from the context.

A subjunctive verb may be in the present, aorist, or perfect tense; the tenses show aspect, not time.

The meaning of the subjunctive mood varies according to its context:

• Hortatory: The subjunctive without ἄν is used in exhortations. The negative is μή. come let us consider
• Prohibitive: The second or third person aorist subjunctive without ἄν is used in prohibitions. The negative is μή. do not lose heart
• Deliberative: The first person subjunctive is used when a speaker questions what she or he should do. The negative is μή. what am I to do? whither shall I fly?
• Hesitating Assertion: The subjunctive with μή can express a doubtful assertion. With μή οὐ it expresses a doubtful denial. I suspect it’s too rude to tell the truth
• In Purpose or Final Clauses: The subjunctive can be used in purpose clauses following verbs in primary sequence. remain behind that we may consider your case also
• In Object Clauses of Effort: The subjunctive can occasionally be used in object clauses introduced by ὅπως or ὅπως μή following verbs that signify effort. he tried to bring it about that war should be occasioned
• In Fear Clauses: The subjunctive is used in object clauses introduced by μή following verbs in primary sequence that signify fear. I am afraid lest we may forget the way home
• In Temporal Clauses: The subjunctive is used with ἄν in temporal clauses referring to the future, corresponding in sense to the future more vivid condition. The negative is μή. when you have heard everything, decide
• Present General Conditions: The subjunctive with ἐάν stands in the protasis of present general conditions. The present indicative stands in the apodosis. Do you punish a wrong-doer if you catch him?
• Future More Vivid Conditions: The subjunctive with ἐάν stands in the protasis of future more vivid conditions. The future indicative stands in the apodosis. What will the soldiers have, if they oblige him in this?

As far as the tense of the verb in the subjunctive mood, it should be remembered that the subjunctive only shows the kind of action (verbal aspect) and not time. Only verbs in the indicative mood indicate time in an absolute sense… However, the ‘time’ implied by the subjunctive is usually future since it is a mood of contingency. Thus the future indicative and the aorist subjunctive are closely related and sometimes used in substitution for each other.

The second or third person aorist subjunctive without ἄν is used in prohibitions. The negative is μή. do not lose heart.

Present General Conditions: The subjunctive with ἐάν stands in the protasis of present general conditions. The present indicative stands in the apodosis. Do you punish a wrong-doer if you catch him?

[with ἐάν, if] he/she/it teaches/do not teach/(like fut ind) shall teach

But it seems too complicated. There must be some way to condense that so that most of the time you’re right using it in the various tenses. “The second or third person aorist subjunctive without ἄν is used in prohibitions” - so does that mean if it’s in the second or third person (alone) it’s typically “do not” do this.

Sorry I know it’s kind of a dumb question. I just want to have a simplified chart that covers most cases.

5

“Subjunctives are usually translated with auxiliary verbs (e.g., may, might, would), but it is best not to try to equate each form with a particular translation.”

Ok, so you look at all the ways it can be used - hortatory, prohibitive, etc. - and you look at all of the examples, and you don’t really see too many might/would etc. I see the first-person hortatory (let us do this), but other than that I don’t see it at all.

Would it be fair to say that if it isn’t hortatory, prohibitive, etc., that subjunctives are normally translated using may/might/would etc?

Thanks

6

Would it be fair to say that if it isn’t hortatory, prohibitive, etc., that subjunctives are normally translated using may/might/would etc?

Hi the short answer to this question is no.

My guess is that you have not studied Greek for a long time. My apologies if this is not the case.

Your first post mentioned the future ind pass and then asked “What’s the best way to think of these for subjunctives. I read that the first person aor subj act is:
let me teach
let us teach”

The comparison is not really at all helpful to you. The future is a “tense” and the subjunctive is a “mood”.

I gave you a page or so from the CGCG which lists in summary form the uses of the subjunctive. You have not referred to this or said what you find inadequate about this summary.

The subjunctive is most often often used in grammatical constructions such as fear clauses, purpose clauses etc. There is an idea of futurity or possibility but it is best to think of this use of the subjunctive as a grammatical construct.

If you are not familiar with these clauses I suggest you read more about them to in any Greek Grammar or textbook.

Try looking at a textbook like Mastronarde. In the unit in which he introduces the subjunctive he says

"The subjunctive tends to express mere assumption or possibility, as opposed to assertion, a main function of the indicative; but it also has imperatival uses. It is more often used in subordinate-clause constructions than in independent clauses: hence its name in Greek, ὑποτακτική, and Latin, subiunctivus, “subjoined.”

The key general points to understand are:

The Greek subjunctive occurs in the three tense systems that express aspect (present, aorist, perfect) and always has aspectual rather than temporal meaning. The present and aorist are common, but the perfect is quite rare.
In all its tenses the subjunctive has the same primary personal endings (like those seen in the present and future indicative). …"

It is never a good idea when trying to understand Greek Grammar to think mainly in terms of “how do I translate an expression”. You have to understand how particular ideas are expressed in Greek. When you have grasped that you can move on to the question how we express those ideas in English.

I hope this helps.

7

Goodwin 1320 gives a simple base to cover everything, and I’d personally memorize these:

ἴωμεν, let us go
μὴ θαυμάσητε, do not wonder
τί εἴπω; what shall I say?
οὐ μὴ τοῦτο γένηται, this (surely) will not happen
οὐδὲ ἴδωμαι [Homeric], nor shall I see

ἔρχεται ἵνα τοῦτο ἴδῃ, he is coming that he may see this
φοβεῖται μὴ τοῦτο γένηται, he fears lest this may happen
ἐὰν ἔλθῃ, τοῦτο ποιήσω, if he comes, I shall do this
ἐάν τις ἔλθῃ, τοῦτο ποιῶ, if any one (ever) comes, I (always) do this
ὅταν ἔλθῃ, τοῦτο ποιήσω, when he comes, I shall do this
ὅταν τις ἔλθῃ, τοῦτο ποιῶ, when any one comes, I (always) do this

Were someone to make a chart especially for memorizing the accidence, I’d consider sentence stubs based on either ἔρχεται ἵνα…, or φοβεῖται μὴ…, because there are some tense/person limitations with the first set of examples.

[The tense/person limitations: “ἴωμεν”-type sentences are going to be first person, “μὴ θαυμάσητε” are going to be aorist, “τί εἴπω”-type are going to be first person, “οὐ μὴ τοῦτο γένηται”-type are usually aorist, “οὐδὲ ἴδωμαι” is Homeric.]

8

I appreciated the page; I even typed it out manually. See:

Main clauses:
• in first-person exhortations (hortatory)
ποιῶμεν ταῦτα let us do that
• in second-person prohibitions (prohibitive) with μὴ, aor subj only
μὴ ποιήσῃς ταῦτα don’t do that
• in first-person doubtful questions (deliberative)
τί ποιῶμεν what should we do?
• in emphatic denials with οὐ μὴ
οὐ μὴ ποιήσω ταῦτα I will certainly not do that
• in doubtful assertions with μὴ
μὴ οὐχ ἔχη I suspect that is not the case

Subordinate clauses:

(without ἄν)
• in fear clauses (depending on a verb of fearing) referring to the future, with μὴ
δέδοικα μὴ ποιήσωσι ταῦτα I fear that they do that
• in fear clauses (depending on a verb of fearing) referring to an uncertain present or past action, with μὴ
δέδοικα μὴ πεποιήκωσι ταῦτα I fear that they may have done that
• in purpose clauses, with ἵνα, ὅπως, ὡς (also sometimes in effort clauses with ὅπως, ὡς)
ἀπέρχονται ἵνα ποιήσωσιν ταῦτα they are leaving in order to do that

(with ἄν)
• in prospective temporal, conditional and restrictive relative clauses referring to (single) actions in the future (main clause: fut. ind., imp., etc.)
ὅταν/ἑάν ταῦτα ποιήσωσιν εὐτυχήσουσιν when/if they do that they will prosper
ἐπαινέσω ταῦτα ἅ ἄν ποιήσωσιν I will praise the things which they do (i.e. if they do them)
• in indefinite temporal, conditional and restrictive relative clauses referring to a non-past habitual/repeated action (main clause: pres. ind.)
ὅταν/ἑάν αῦτα ποιήσωσιν εὐτυχοῦσιν whenever/if ever they do that they prosper
ὅς ἄν ταῦτα εὐτυχεῖ whoever does that prospers

It’s mostly the same as what I got from the other textbook. The main thing I didn’t get was how “Subjunctives are usually translated with auxiliary verbs (e.g., may, might, would), but it is best not to try to equate each form with a particular translation.” (Anne Groton’s From Alpha To Omega-a Beginning Course In Classical Greek.) Maybe she’s referring to the first person?

Cheers

9

Thanks, that is nice and concise.

I tried to find ‘Goodwin 1320’; is that Syntax of the Moods and Tenses of the Greek Verb?

Cheers

10

Goodwin’s Greek Grammar. He’s got something similar for the optative.

11

Thanks!