Some rambling thoughts on learning Latin

Textkit Community Open Board
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As I read the posts from other Textkit newbies I’ve been thinking about how I learned Latin and what suggestions I could make for a beginner in the language. Here are a few thoughts on the matter, in no particular order :

  1. Festina lente! My t’ai chi teachers used to tell me that “Ten years is a good beginning”, so take your time, savor the language even at its simplest. Start with brief passages, quotations, and short poems. Some of the finest Latin poems are only a few lines long and require only a little effort to read and understand. Understand that the skill required for reading the Aeneid is considerable skill indeed, but everyone acquires that skill in much the same way, i.e., by hard study and exercise. Oh, and avoid “fake” Latin, i.e., textbook exercises. Read from the classical (or Medieval or Renaissance or Neo-Latin) authors themselves.

  2. Learn the prosody. I would emphasize this factor: reading Latin poetry aloud brings one to the very rhythm of the Latin mind and heart, and there are values in the poetry that simply cannot be rendered into another language (try translating the Attis by Catullus for an exercise in frustration).

  3. Read what you’re interested in. Caesar’s prose is interesting, but not if you really want to read Propertius. As a music teacher I’ve concluded that people will really work at getting what they want most of all. Of course the challenges of grammar and vocabulary remain, but at least you’ll be working directly with the stuff you’re aiming for.

  4. Avoid commentaries. Read originals, think about what you’ve read, make up your own mind. If I tell you that half of Horace is sheer buncomb, you may or may not believe me, but you will never truly know until you’ve read and thought about Horace yourself. Get a classical dictionary for reference, stick with originals, and think about what you read. Learn to make your own literary valuations.

  5. Try composing some Latin poetry or prose. Ja, I know it would appear to have little or no utility in our modern wired world, but such exercises work the mind in ways not common to your daily speech and writing. A classics friend once told me that there’s no accurate thought without being able to think in at least one language not native to you. You may not totally agree with that statement, but it does bring up an interesting topic.

  6. Memorize passages and poems, then write and recite them. Do it for the sheer pleasure of the sonority. Last summer I memorized an hour’s worth of Latin poems and recited them to myself while walking our dog. But even a few minutes worth of memorized passages will bring you into a more intimate acquaintance with the rhythm and feel of the Latin soul. And of course you’ll acquire a greater working vocabulary.

  7. Don’t hesitate to consult a variety of translations. No-one knows it all, and it is common practice for scholars to consult the work of other scholars. Again I’ll emphasize the avoidance of commentaries, but I do promote the use of translations as learning aids. Commentaries are interesting after you’ve absorbed the originals.

  8. For younger students: Translate your favorite popular songs into Latin. I think translating Eminem would be quite an interesting experience for a relatively advanced beginner in the language, and you’d certainly acquire a unique vocabulary. Teachers, perhaps this kind of activity could be done as a class exercise ? (Though I suspect Eminem would not be the agreed-upon text…)

Okay, there are a few of my thoughts on the subject. Anyone else want to weigh in on the matter ?

Btw, Schopenhauer wrote an excellent essay on the importance of learning the classical languages. Classical scholars such as Gilbert Highet have extolled the virtues of the classics, but I’m especially interested in opinions of people from outside the world of classical scholarship. Anyone else have any favorite “secular” passages in praise of the lingua materna?

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Eminem is a great idea… though I imagine quite difficult to translate since he is such a wizard with words… you have given me a challenge… :wink:

does it need to have his rhythm too, cuz that could be… impossible. :slight_smile:

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There’s a lot here that I agree with, and a little bit on which we probably disagree, or would add. Just two points, then:

  1. I would not be quite as dismissive as you are of “fake” Latin in the early stages. There are quite a few constructions and forms which are sufficiently “advanced” that you will not be able to read real prose until you have them under your belt. Things like the subjunctive, the ablative absolute, gerunds and gerundives. These things are not hard, but no-one can learn everything at once, and they tend to come later on in the course (probably, especially the subjunctive, very often too late: but that’s another discussion). Until you have them under your belt, real prose is apt to trip you up. But if you wait until you have all the grammar learned, you will find real prose a big leap (and poetry perhaps a bigger leap). Good fake (or semi-fake, i.e. adapted) prose in the embryonic stages can be a legitimate way to ease the transition, and helps build knowledge of vocabulary and syntax. But I certaintly agree one should get on to real Latin as soon as one can. Ad fontes is a good cry, but one has to get the timing right.

  2. I would not dismiss commentaries. Indeed, I would reverse the order between commentaries and translations. Commentaries will often explain a construction or piece of vocabulary so that you understand it, and that way you learn. And commentaries will add historical detail and so forth which can add to your enjoyment. Translations I think are more dangerous because they make it easy to skip hard passages, or to think you have understood something you have not really understood. This is not to say they are without real value, but I think they need care (especially parallel translations and so-called literal translations, which seem to me to be almost always pernicious). But one should not read with one finger in a commentary or a translation. In either case one should try to understand a passage before turning for help.

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Someone has already translated the most famous work of Sir Mix-a-lot into Latin. There is extensive commentary.

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[quote=“annis”]
Someone has already translated the most famous work of Sir Mix-a-lot into Latin. There is extensive commentary.[/quote]

Very cool, thank you. I had seen the catch phrase in a sig and wondered if someone had translated the whole song. Hilarious. The Geek (no, not Greek) version is also a riot.

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Why memorize a hour of poems? Though astounding in the respect of memory, are there not more beneficial things to do?

Regarding the ‘fake’ Latin, I’ll have you know that Professor Benjamin L. D’Ooge even in a Beginner’s Latin text writes far better in my opinion than Catullus. Look at the story of Publius at the end of his book. Memorize it if you like.

Eminem? :angry: How could many young classicists like eminem let alone know how to render certain obscure modern American idioms and the less scarce expletives into Latin? All these attempts at making Latin trendy and fun are failures from the start.

Who wants slow? In this day and age everything should be done magno cursu. Had I listened to your Tai Chi teacher I would be currently a loser still memorizing the terminations of the second declension.

Every one is an individual and should do what one feels to be necessary and fair for oneself.

I learned Latin mainly to understand my Roman dreams at night, what those soldiers are saying.

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Young classicists who love the english language like Eminem because he is a master of words (well, I can only speak for myself ;). He has creativity and vocabulary at his instant command that I think many lyricists would envy. I think translating one of his songs into ANY language would be an interesting challenge, much more interesting than your average musician’s lyrics.

It has nothing to do with making Latin trendy and fun–everything to do with giving me an interesting way to practice latin poetry composition and creativity in translation. :wink:

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Translating Eminem would be vastly more difficult than Sir Mix-a-Lot. Unfortunately, the word filter precludes a detailed a discussion on this topic.

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And when you’re learning Greek, [size=134]σπεῦδε βραδέως[/size].

Oh, and avoid “fake” Latin, i.e., textbook exercises. Read from the classical (or Medieval or Renaissance or Neo-Latin) authors themselves.

But the beginner needs exercises to practice the principles of the language. It’s probably not realistic to devise a textbook that uses only “real” Latin, whatever that means, as exercise material. Also, combining classical and medieval Latin reading blunts a student’s sense of their distinctly different ways of expressing ideas. At the beginning, I think it’s better to read classically written “fake” Latin than authentic medieval Latin. Thoroughly absorb one medium, then learn another.

  1. Read what you’re interested in. Caesar’s prose is interesting, but not if you really want to read Propertius.

I can understand that, having taught music myself. And, by the way, I hated Caesar as a teenager, now in middle age he’s really growing on me.

  1. Avoid commentaries.

Here’s where I take issue with your advice. I think you have the values of translations and commentaries reversed.

Again I’ll emphasize the avoidance of commentaries, but I do promote the use of translations as learning aids. Commentaries are interesting after you’ve absorbed the originals.

I fully endorse the comments Ulpianus made, and I’ll go further. A translation does the work of understanding the language for you. It doesn’t tell you how that understanding was achieved. The commentary of a good school edition of a classic will point you toward understanding the language on its own terms. If you have trouble understanding a passage from the Aeneid and you consult a translation, you have to work backward to see how the English came from the Latin, whereas a good commentary should give you the grammatical information to understand the Latin as Latin. Commentaries also provide reference to other passages of literature which illuminate the meaning of the work at hand, information which the beginning or intermediate student will not have. The commentaries I’ve seen do not try to make up your mind for you.

Kerastes

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i completely agree with dlp. concentrating almost purely on real latin/greek, and paying attention to prosody, listening to a good pronunciation of the latin/greek (whether it’s academic or reconstructed pronunciation is your choice), with a few good translations… you can’t help but take in the language naturally.

i’ve read a lot of commentaries, and i agree with dlp, they’re pretty useless for someone who wants to begin the language… because grammar isn’t the only way into a language (i think it’s a bad way actually), and commentaries (like most classics textbooks) focus on grammar (and that’s why lots of people hate the classics). some observations in commentaries do bring out more of the beauty of a particular phrase: like the lilies-in-the-field constructions, &c, but most of them are just grammatical facts which are useless to a beginner.

even things like the aspect of a verb in greek: it creates a subtle difference, but the beginner doesn’t need to worry about those things at the beginning.

i’d recommend that a beginner, or someone who’s had just a little bit of latin/greek,

  1. find an audio recording they really like of a greek/latin poem/prose extract (there are good recordings on the net for lots of the great poets and prose authors; textkit links to them i’m sure)
  2. find the poem/extract on www.perseus.tufts.edu
  3. read the translation on perseus (or somewhere else)
  4. open up the latin/greek on perseus and click on each word: and try to roughly match up these words/clauses to the translation.

i’ve done this. it makes you then go out and try to figure out why certain things are the way they are in the latin and greek: you track down your own answers in the dictionaries and grammars… this is where the grammar enriches the latin/greek you’ve already taught yourself in a basic way.

at the end you can’t even remember the translation or the english: the real latin and greek is in your head, because you’ve focused on it exclusively for a few weeks.

and then, as you learn more things about e.g. aspect, tenses, alternate constructions, it adds to the latin/greek already in your head.

i’ve spoken to classics students and professors who are sceptical about this approach, even though they agree it works for other languages, e.g. french. but these people often can’t read or write naturally a single sentence of latin or greek ex tempore, because they’ve been taught to analyse classical texts like pieces of legislation: picking out all the possible details and constructions, rather than to read and enjoy these old poems at a basic level to begin with.

cheers, chad. :slight_smile:

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How are you using the word “commentaries” here? My Medea commentary talks only occasionally about grammar, but points out historical and cultural stuff that helps understanding the text. Just as you have to know The Simpsons to full understand what’s going on when someone says “mmmmmmmm, doughnuts”, without a commentary you might miss allusions that every (educated) Greek would have known. They are very useful if you don’t use them as a crutch.

even things like the aspect of a verb in greek: it creates a subtle difference, but the beginner doesn’t need to worry about those things at the beginning.

I can’t disagree with this more. It’s like saying “don’t worry about gender agreement for now, pick it up later.” I can’t see how this will not cause problems later.

i’ve spoken to classics students and professors who are sceptical about this approach, even though they agree it works for other languages, e.g. french. but these people often can’t read or write naturally a single sentence of latin or greek ex tempore, because they’ve been taught to > analyse > classical texts like pieces of legislation: picking out all the possible details and constructions, rather than to read and enjoy these old poems > at a basic level to begin with> .

There is no such thing as a basic level in Greek and Latin, except for some non-literary stuff. The poems, letters, plays and speeches we have are highly cultivated and polished works, not shopping lists. We don’t teach English with Milton, or French with Moliere, but for Greek and (classical) Latin that’s basically all we have.

This is not to say I don’t think Greek and Latin teaching methods cannot learn something - probably quite a lot - from modern language teaching methods, but comparing it to French, say, isn’t very useful, because no genuine piece of Greek is remotely like asking for directions to Notre Dame. And there’s certainly no reason to toss genuinely useful tools of the ancien regime.

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hi will, i know that you’re on top of greek more than most of us on this board, so i’m not saying that other ways of learning greek are worse. and i’ve already just explained the learning technique which has worked for me, so i won’t repeat it…

i do believe that there is a “basic” level of greek, and that starting with this won’t cause probs later. i’m not talking about “basic greek” like shopping lists on old papyri, i’m talking about starting with the greats at a basic level.

i’ve read lots of the classic authors at the most basic level: arms, man-and, i sing &c. working through this you get the story in your head, and this inspires you to go out and enrich the story with associated history, grammar, prosody, style &c information. gradually your knowledge of the text gets less “basic”.

just like with french: you can read the works of hugo, baudelaire, huysmans &c, and then fill out the information over time. you don’t “miss” anything: the only difference is you start enjoying the great classics works now, rather than in 50 years when you’ve mastered the exercises and understand the nuances of absolute constructions, the vividness created by using the greek subjunctive rather than optative in indirect discourse after a historical verb, &c &c.

i can remember well the genders of french words i’ve come across in these great works which i’ve read, hummed to myself and thought about for ages: i can’t ever remember the genders of words in vocab lists.

i learn french and greek the same way. cheers, chad. :slight_smile:

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Many of the songs have “clean” versions, which may be more desirable. He makes the clean cuts for his daughter’s sake. :wink:

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Clean cuts? So it’s a bunch of instrumentals, then? :laughing:

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lol

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I’m not sure how much of your response is serious, but I’ll reply (somewhat) seriously.

First, there’s nothing astounding about memorizing an hour’s worth of poetry. What’s astounding to me is that more people don’t do it. And is there something more benficial than cultivating one’s mind and tastes ?

Regarding the ‘fake’ Latin, I’ll have you know that Professor Benjamin L. D’Ooge even in a Beginner’s Latin text writes far better in my opinion than Catullus. Look at the story of Publius at the end of his book. Memorize it if you like.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. I of course have my time to consider. I read some of the Publius story. Nice. To return the favor, may I recommend reading Winnie Ille Pu instead ? It’s a much better story.

The comparison with Catullus is so inappropriate I can only assume you jest…

Eminem? > :angry: > How could many young classicists like eminem let alone know how to render certain obscure > modern > American idioms and the less scarce expletives into Latin? All these attempts at making Latin trendy and fun are failures from the start.

So Latin should be made irrelevant and a chore ? As a professional instructor my experience tells me otherwise.

I have no idea how many young classicists know anything about Eminem, but I know that a multitude of young people do. Making Latin connect with them is not exactly an easy task, given that there seems to be no Earthly reason to study a language that hasn’t been spoken for a millenium or so. (OTOH, a trip to Italy might make one wonder about the truth of that asserion…)

I’m sure you’re already familiar with the Charles Bukowski site dedicated to obscene Latin ? It’s at http://www.obscure.org/obscene-latin/, it’s not very extensive but it can help get a student off to a good start with some of the scurrilities…

Who wants slow? In this day and age everything should be done > magno cursu> . Had I listened to your Tai Chi teacher I would be currently a loser still memorizing the terminations of the second declension.

No you wouldn’t. He didn’t teach Latin.

I learned Latin mainly to understand my Roman dreams at night, what those soldiers are saying.

Ah, another one. Mine are saying “Surge, tempus est bibendum !”

Cura ut valeas.

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I see your point, and perhaps I should clarify my own. Let me put it this way: With all the Latin literature available from the Roman period, the Medieval period, and the Renaissance, it seems there should be little extended need for the fake stuff. So perhaps I should have said “Get the fake stuff out of the way as soon as humanly possible”.

Btw, does anyone ever teach from Priscian or Donatus ? Might be an interesting way to set up a curriculum…

  1. I would not dismiss commentaries. Indeed, I would reverse the order between commentaries and translations. Commentaries will often explain a construction or piece of vocabulary so that you understand it, and that way you learn. And commentaries will add historical detail and so forth which can add to your enjoyment. Translations I think are more dangerous because they make it easy to skip hard passages, or to think you have understood something you have not really understood. This is not to say they are without real value, but I think they need care (especially parallel translations and so-called literal translations, which seem to me to be almost always pernicious). But one should not read with one finger in a commentary or a translation. In either case one should try to understand a passage before turning for help.

Okay, I got torched a little on this point, and I think I’ve presented my argument badly. Yes, of course, a good commentary is invaluable. I’m currently reading the Temple edition of the Divine Comedy, which contains the Italian original with a facing translation in simple English prose. Excellent brief notes are appended to each canto, and a brief precis of the Inferno/Purgatory/Paradiso is placed at the end of each volume. This sort of commentary is focused only on filling in details of history, locale, literray reference, et cetera, and I would agree with anyone who recommended such a commentary.

Perhaps what I should have said is “Avoid critical exegeses”.

My attitude on this subject is less based on Pound’s advice than on an experience I had when studying Latin and Greek with Dr. Hebein. I had run into a fellow who was a history major focusing on Thucydides. He was a graduate student working on his Master’s degree, and he hadn’t read a single word of the historian in the original Greek. He did take up the study during his graduate studies, but curiously it was not required, i.e., he could acquire his degree on the basis of reading only translations and commentaries. This struck me as ludicrous, like getting a degree in Chinese poetry without being able to read or speak Chinese. Hence my emphasis (in part, at least) on the ad fontes approach.

Alas, I have to teach in about 15 minutes, so I must go. Thank you for your interesting reply.

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The Hugo books rule! My only qualm about the excellent latest edition of the Italian Hugo in three months is the lack of subjunctive! I was incredulous! Luckily I have another reference grammar with which I shall fill that pit.

And all the black rappers are just the normal cursing thugs?!

Busta Rhymes at 1993-1998 was far better than Eminem as a lyricist. Refer to “Rhymes Galore”, “Everything Remains Raw” and even the good old “Scenario.”

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It’s true that there may be other rappers comparable in talent… what I like about eminem (besides the talent) is his sense of humour and the fact that he doesn’t just sing about getting with girls. I’ve yet to hear another rapper who can make me laugh, or conjure up the vivid mental pictures that eminem does–both adding to the reasons why he’d be a good one to translate.

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Probably not by that much. Don’t confuse my enthusiasm for skill. :slight_smile:

i’ve read lots of the classic authors at the most basic level: > arms, man-and, i sing > &c. working through this you get the story in your head, and this inspires you to go out and enrich the story with associated history, grammar, prosody, style &c information. gradually your knowledge of the text gets less “basic”.

This is also my basic approach to learning any new literary language. Unfortunately I know, with painful experience, that without at least some of the tedious (and artificial) grammar and silly practice sentences the chances of burning in an incorrect understanding of a construction are all too likely. Using an unadapted school text - with commentary! - is an excellent way to avoid some of that (Pharr is my current favorite example).

you don’t “miss” anything: the only difference is you start enjoying the great classics works now, rather than in 50 years when you’ve mastered the exercises and understand the nuances of absolute constructions,

Erm. I hope you’re exaggerating here. I’m not saying you need to master Smyth before picking up real Greek. But some prepatory work with artificial exercises gives a head start on understanding real texts, and even if the transition is a bit bumpy at first, it can’t be worse than the first encounter with ἵστημι when learning grammar.

i can remember well the genders of french words i’ve come across in these great works which i’ve read, hummed to myself and thought about for ages: i can’t ever remember the genders of words in vocab lists.

Now this I agree with completely. Learning vocab by repeated exposure to words being used in context is much easier - and more accurate - than learning lists. I still keep vocab notes for myself when I’m working on a text, but often with brief phrases locating the words in context. This seems to help.