I hope what I write here is worthy enough to be posted here
well, its been a while I try to make sense this simple yet nerve-consuming sentence (again from JACT RG page 136 last sentence)
ὄζουσι χαὗται πρεσβέων εἰς τὰς πόλεις ὀξύτατα
weirdly enough for me, with JACT hints, I could understand this sentence but only the second word χαὗται.
this is strange because if it is a new vocab JACT will give the help or hints, but because it is absent so I think it is either JACT regard it as an old vocab that one should know (but I really dont), or it is a typo. then I decided it is just a typo, but when I looked up into the first ed which is not differ too much, the very word is there from the start.. so by Apollo, It really disturbs me.
then I was thinking where I could consult a resource that can answer this problem, (for there is no teacher around and I bet those good fellow who made JACT design it for a teaching course not for self study from the start).. so it happened when I try to consult Smyth. I found the answer on this problem about crasis (on page 22) that και will drop αι and change to χ with rough breathing. so the form is actually και + ἇυται. and to think of it, a novice whose ears still wet is utilizing this tome respected by those of high greek-literacy, that I never think before.
so what I want to make a point is, for fellow beginner who self-taught, to consult smyth even at this stage, when we seems a blocked way ahead. even though It’s reference content is meant for those who have good grip on the basics, but I think the presentation is easy enough to follow even though we are not expected to digest all presented at the same time. for it is what a reference is for, to be consulted not to be memorized in one sitting..
so what do you ppl think? do you have same experience or advice?
so what I want to make a point is, for fellow beginner who self-taught, to consult smyth even at this stage,
IMHO it is never too early to start using reference grammars. Smyth is one of the best in English. It takes a while to get used to him but it is worth the effort.
I have yet to ever have had a question answered by Smyth. Sometimes when I have posted a question the answerer having fully explained my problem to me has given me a reference to Smyth. Only then can I find and understand the answer because I by then already know it.
I agree with daivid. Trying to use a grammar book to answer a specific question in the text is frustratingly impossible. If you knew where to look in the grammar book to answer the question, chances are you would have already known the answer. I study Monro separately from reading the text.
Beginning readers need good notes on basic grammar for guidance, few such notes on texts exist.
It’s the meta-language problem I suspect. I find answers in Smyth faster than any other grammar. The index is excellent but you do need to know the meta-language and the structure of the traditional grammar system.
I agree that notes on texts like G. Steadman’s are very helpful but they also tend to use the meta-language. I suppose there are people who attempt to teach without meta-language but they end up creating a new meta-language in the process. My first textbook on NT Greek was E.V. N. Goetchius Language of the NT, he avoided a lot of the traditional metalanguage by demonstration structural patterns in syntax: This is how you would say … in Greek …, here are three other ways you could say the same thing. This is why you might choose to say it this way and not that way.
It is not really the meta language that is the problem. Commentaries do tend to use meta-language shorthand which isn’t always at once clear to me. In situations like that Smyth can be helpful though even then my first resort is to one of my textbooks. What was talking about is when I get stuck on something which the commentary considers to be too easy for a comment.
Indeed today reading Herodotus Sheets referred to ingressive aorists which is a term I had never heard. Sheets gave a Smyth section and it turn out to a perfective verb that designates not a completed action but the initiation of a continuing action - a concept I know from Serbo-Croat.
Anyone who is learning on their own will have had that experience. I wouldn’t attempt to estimate how many times I have experienced that scenario but it would be a number with a row of zeros after it.
“then I was thinking where I could consult a resource that can answer this problem, (for there is no teacher around and I bet those good fellow who made JACT design it for a teaching course not for self study from the start)..”
The first part of the J.A.C.T Reading Greek Course consists of three books: Text and Vocabulary; Grammar and Exercises; and An Independent Study Guide. The last named of these books, as the title suggests, is for students learning without the benefit of a tutor. It contains translations of and a grammatical and literary commentary on the passages contained within the Text and Vocabulary volume, plus the answers to the Exercises and Test Exercises contained within Grammar and Exercises. There is no need to look outside of these three books for solutions to any of the problems encountered within them.
The J.A.C.T. team also produce an excellent double CD - Reading Greek - which has readings of a substantial number of the passages in the Text and Vocabulary volume. This for me proved invaluable in developing the correct pronunciation of the texts.
yeah the independent study guide extremely helpful.. I cannot imagine how my greek will proceed without it. but surely, the explanations geared toward the translation and exercise. there is still some piece of grammar that is unexplained. well nobody perfect though. all people have a different learning and teaching experience
and for the CD pardon me to say, I am still inclined toward the modern greek pronounciation, because it is the first living greek I hear(at my local parish-church) and I know maybe this pronounciation is not the best.. but well I cant help it
and how I met this nice and joyful african-american in a cafe, and I asked whether he wanted to add a sugar to his coffe and he replied “I aint goin’ to add more, to sweet, I aint goin’ to add more” and it takes me a minute to grasp his meaning..
yeah the independent study guide extremely helpful.
I looked through my copy of the independent study guide and it gives no help on the crasis involved here.
Crasis is something I kept forgetting about when I started to learn ancient Greek. Making mistakes as they say is an important part of learning and I am glad you found the answer in the ever helpful (at least to me) Smyth. Much slimmer but also helpful is Morwood’s Oxford Grammar.
I hope that you will now look at the breathings on any unfamiliar words and note that if there is a breathing other than at the beginning of the word its probably crasis. I say probably because the more Greek I read the more diverse it seems to get.
I think that’s correct. Something that starts with a consonant and has a breathing on the immediately following vowel or diphthong (the vowel will be long) will indicate two merged words, i.e. crasis.
It happens most often with καί (e.g. καὶ ἐκεῖνος > κἀκεῖνος, καὶ οὗτος > χοὗτος) and the article (e.g. τὰ ἐμά > τἀμά)
(Pedants insist that it’s not a breathing but a “coronis,” but it makes no difference.)
It doesn’t have to start with a consonant. ἁνήρ (rough breathing, long alpha) represents ὁ ἀνήρ (short alpha), for instance.
By editorial convention (nothing more), crasis is effected in verse, but not in prose. In one of the speeches that Thucydides puts into the mouth of Pericles, he says
και εγω μεν ο αυτος ειμι και ουκ εξισταμαι, “And I am the same and do not shift.”
This is actually an iambic trimeter with three crases: κἀγὼ μὲν αὑτός εἰμι κοὐκ ἐξίσταμαι.
Was Pericles quoting from a tragedy?
“I looked through my copy of the independent study guide and it gives no help on the crasis involved here.”
In fairness to the J.A.C.T., I have to say that the principle of crasis is explained on p88, no.100 of the Grammar and Exercises volume.
I feel a loyalty to this course because it’s the one I used.
I feel a loyalty to this course because it’s the one I used.
I too used it and I think its a great resource. Some posters mentioned that there may be additional help in the independent study guide so I thought I would check.
You are right that crasis is mentioned in the grammar but some way before this example comes up. The specific case of rough breathing is not however explicitly mentioned.
I have yet to ever have had a question answered by Smyth.
Personally, I find the on-line version of Smyth (as well as that of Allen & Greenough on the Latin side) nearly impossible to use. It’s much easier to find the information you’re looking for in the hard copy. When I respond to a question with a cite to Smyth, I generally use the hard copy to find the right place and then post a link to the on-line version.
LSJ is another resource that you should try to take advantage of in desperate moments. Often it will give a helpful gloss on a specific passage that’s troubling you. It will also give you a sense of how incomplete our grasp on ancient Greek really is. The on-line version isn’t easy to use, but it’s not as difficult as on-line Smyth.
The intermediate Liddell & Scott (based on an older edition of the big L&S, before Jones and MacKenzie came into the picture) also gives many specific glosses (with citations just to authors, not to exact passages), and can be just as useful. Hard copies, new or used, are available at reasonable prices.
I’m eagerly awaiting this, which promises an appendix on “Errors in Smyth’s Grammar”:
LSJ is another resource that you should try to take advantage of in desperate moments.
In general I agree although I have lost count of the number of times when reading a commentary I read that LSJ is wrong. If one has time ones needs to consult as many sources as possible and make up ones own mind. hardly helpful advice for a beginner I know. I was motivated to get the Brill dictionary precisely because LSJ is rather outdated and of course even some of the english meanings given have changed in meaning.
There’s always bound to be disagreement in scholarly debates, and given it’s age LSJ has lasted the test of time remarkably well. It’s quite possible that LSJ will still be consulted when no one uses Brill.
Brill’s Etymological Dictionary of Greek is a case in point. It’s supposed to replace Chantraine’s chef d’oeuvre from the 70’s. I have checked it only once, and it failed miserably (see this thread: http://discourse.textkit.com/t/ionian-sea/12235/1). Perhaps it might do better if I tried another time, but I haven’t bothered…
I know you have a penchant for Chantraine (and rightly so), but don’t forget the slightly earlier Frisk, Paul. Beekes is to large extent an “updated” version of Frisk. I use inverted commas as one may disagree with some of these “updates”, most notoriously those dreadful laryngeals. I like Beekes’s Pre-Greek approaches (now also in a self-standing monograph), though sometimes it may be difficult to say much conclusively.
