Hello, this is my first post after ages lurking, so here goes!
I’m working with the Loci Antiqui independently, and I was wondering if there is someone here who would check my translations. If there are translations of these passages up somewhere, that would work too, but I havent been able to find any so far.
Thanks a lot!
Post your translations in the forum. If they are lengthy, try to limit postings to the portions which you are unsure of or have questions about. We are more than happy to help. Welcome to the forum :]
There aren’t any Loci Antiqui translations anywhere I know of. I was going to make a key for those but I was reminded that those passages should be for independent study. You may find a few queries about Loci Antiqui passages in this section of the forum, but for the most part people have not asked about them. Many of the unaltered texts, especially the poems, have been translated online and can be found online at the Perseus Project and other websites (as original text translations, not Loci Antiqui from Wheelock’s). You may feel free to post as often as you like if you have any trouble. That is much better for learning than just looking at the answers and checking them against your own.
Thanks so much, it’s great to have this resource!
One of the ones I had trouble understanding was 4, ‘The Sword of Damocles’, let me post what I guessed it to be if I could. Let me know if you would like me to post the text from wheelock (mines 6th edition, I’m not sure how much they’ve changed).
Are the parts with the sword correct, and if so, do you know what they mean? Is there a better translation than “happy” throughout the passage? And what about the ‘recounting, denying’ bit? Also, the last sentence has me worried.
Thanks again for the time, its much appreciated!
Hello, johnsmith !
I am willing to help you if I can, but, unfortunately, I haven’t got Wheelock’s book. Your passage is taken from Cicero’s Tusculanae Disputationes. However, I am not sure about the modifications made by Wheelock 
Cicero wrote
Quamquam hic quidem tyrannus ipse iudicauit quam beatus esset. Nam…
It means (in my best broken English) “However, this tyrant, at least, judged (appreciated?) himself how happy he was. For…” (“how happy he was” means “what was the measure of his happiness”, and the tyrant will show that he is very unhappy). This sentence is a general introduction to the story.
Now, was that Wheelock’s text?
Hello! And thanks for helping out, its much appreciated!
Here’s the wheelock text, I’m sure its plenty different from the original (and sorry if I make mistakes in typing):
Thanks again!
Here are some comments about your work. But let me warn you, I am not an English native speaker. So it can happen that you are right while I believe you are not… especially in somewhat complicated texts. Then you will have to correct me.
Anyways, your translation is very sound. Unless I am mislead by an insufficient knowledge of the English use of tenses, I find some inaccuracies when you translate the tenses of the verbs, especially the subjunctives with cum.
“since” : “when” (narrative cum describing the circumstances… rather than causal cum)
“had been recounting” : “was recalling, was reminding” (you translate more as the pluperfect commemorauisset)
“had denyed” would be negauisset : “was denying”
“would ever be” would be fore or futurum esse, a future infinitive : fuisse means here rather “had been”
“himself” : seems superfluous se is the subject of cupere (« As he had said that he wished it »)
“(adorned tables with silver and gold?)” : yes. It is difficult to understand because Wheelock has greatly simplified – if not squeezed - the text (in Cicero : abacosque compluris ornavit argento auroque caelato : « chiselled silver and gold » implies that it is crockery, so « and he adorned many sideboards with (crockery made of) chiselled silver and gold. »
“Each time” : “at the same time”, “simultaneously”
“since he saw” : literally “as he had seen”
“Had… seemed” : uidetur is a present, so « Doesn’t D. seem… ? » (Wheelock’s Cicero asks for your opinion)
“who… fear” : cui is a dative with impendeat ; in turn, the subject of impendeat is aliqui metus « some fear », « one or another fear », so « … demonstrated that nothing is happy to the one which some fear is threatening »
VALE
Thanks so much for your help Skylax!
You’re right, I’ve been confusing the pluperfect and imperfect subjunctives, this was just what I needed to see what I’m doing wrong. I’ll also work on better translations of cum and cum clauses. And what’s this about insufficient knowledge of English?? You’ve nothing to worry about there!
Would you be so kind as to let me post another?
Please !
I’ve just started my new Latin class at college so I’ll be working with the Vulgate now, do you think you could check some of my translations for it? We’re translating Luke first, the going is really slow! There are many new words I’ve never encountered with Wheelock or 38 Stories, plus the word order is pretty new for me.
I’m not quite sure what the policy here on the forum is with actual schoolwork, this is an ‘independent study’ course. Let me know there are special rules for such things here.
These are the rules: http://discourse.textkit.com/t/asking-for-homework-translation-help/1167/1
They are not very strict, we assume that you will be courteous to whoever is helping you by keeping the amount of content within reasonable limits. Also, showing your own attempts is absolutely required so the reviewer can help you understand and not just supply the answers.
Great, thanks benissimus!
Ill post the first few verses I’ve translated from Luke if I may:
1.1 Since it’s true that many have tried to record a chronological narrative of the things completed by us,
1.2 as those who have seen and preached of them (sermonis??) from the beginning have handed down to us,
1.3 it seems natural to me (seems and comes natural to me?) to write to you, Theophilius (how is optime used here?), by carefully arranging all (of these things?) from the beginning,
1.4 so you might learn the truth of those words you have learned.
The latin text is graciously provided at: http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Vulgate/Luke.html
This word order seems quite different from wheelock! It takes me much longer to translate these sentences than it has with wheelock exercises and the Loci Antiqui. Is this normal?
Thanks again all.
Sorry I had one more question about grammer if I could. In these passages, or any passages really, do clauses end with the finite verb? For instance, in the first verse where ‘rerum’ appears after the clause.
Thanks again! I’ll make sure and keep my posts to the parts of the passages I have questions on in the future (providing these translations aren’t completely outrageous!).
The Vulgate, alas ! It is the Latin work which I dislike the best ! But I will perhaps learn to like it a bit more (Bad start, though)…
1.1 “completed by us” : “among us” (“by us” would be “a nobis”)
1.2 SERMONIS genitive with MINISTRI (literally “servants of the discourse”)
1.3 ET means here “too, also” (“it seemed natural also to me…”)
1.3 OPTIME vocative singular agreeing with THEOPHILE (excellent Theophilus)
1.3 OMNIBUS : Hieronymus seems to use the dative with ADSECUTO, what is not the common Latin usage, maybe it is a calque from the Greek, where Luke used a verb meaning “follow, accompany” which is followed by the dative. The meaning : “it seemed natural also to me, having surveyed all things (normally OMNIA) from the beginning, to write (it) to you carefully in (chronological) order”. One more time, the Greek word used by Luke is clearer to me than Jerome’s EX ORDINE.
Well, Jerome’s Latin has always confused me, so that a long time I thought he was far more recent than he is eventually.
I could. In these passages, or any passages really, do clauses end with the finite verb? For instance, in the first verse where ‘rerum’ appears after the clause.
oh no ! although it is frequently so. But here the place of RERUM surprised me also (this seems so awkward : Cicero, even revised by Wheelock, does not write in such a manner…)
Let’s wait for the following text, and for other opinions about Jerome also…
I feel your pain! The instructor isn’t too keen on the classic Latin texts, his main interest seems to be Koine Greek, especially early Christian texts. Greek! =)
I also thought the vulgate was much more recent. Latin must have changed rapidly for the plebs during those centuries.
But anyway, thank you so much for your continued help, Skylax. I’m not sure about how much time or desire you have to continue helping me out; I dont want to be an annoyance! However, I’d love to keep posting passages if I could! I’m up to 1:17, but my translations have been sloppy in places, I’m still very unsure. Ill post a few verses I’m sure I translated incorrectly, but if you enjoy this I’d love to post them all! So far its taken many hours just on these few verses, so it shouldnt be a torrent of material =)
1.7 (The beginning has me worried, especially the illis and eo combination) and he was not with sons (of him?), because Elisebeth was sterile, and they both had both been advanced in their age, (how much liberty should I take with this translation? ‘and they were both getting old’ would seem more clear, but is this discouraged?)
1.8 it was done, therefore, while he performed his priestly things before God in the way (duty, order?) of his office,
1.9 following the custom of the priests, it was demanded by casting lots (abl of means? ‘demanded’ sounds like a command so Im assuming ut is used that way – this is exigo isnt it? hehe) that he place incense of the doorway (I cant see any other way to do this. ingressus is genitive isnt it?) in the temple of God,
1.10 and all the multitude of people (I assume populi is another of Jerome’s remote genitives?) were begging outside for incense that hour,
1.11-17 went easier (at least I think so), but again let me know if youd like to see what I got. Thanks so much for your continued help, it really brightens up my studies!
Please post them all. (Nevertheless, I cannot guarantee that I will always reply instantaneously, but I will do my best)
1.7
(The beginning has me worried, especially the illis and eo combination)
ILLIS is a plural dative : NON ERAT ILLIS FILIUS “a son was not to them” (usual, classical way to say “they had got no son”); EO is not linked with ILLIS : EO is an ablative of cause meaning “because of this” “for this reason” and it announces the QUOD
1.7.
‘and they were both getting old’ would seem more clear, but is this discouraged?)
You should ask your instructor. In principle, a translator has to respect the usage of the target language (here English), so that the translation seems to have been originally written in the target language : he may therefore depart from the literal translation if it is needed. But if your instructor wants to know if you recognize the way in which the Latin has expressed himself, then your “translation” may be more literal. Personally, I think that your last proposition is very good.
1.8 « in the way (duty, order?) of his office » : « order » I think but it is VICIS that matters. It is the same word as VICE in 1.5, denoting, so I’ve been told, one of the 25 « divisions » (in Greek ἐφημερίαι which David created among the priests. I think the « division » of Z. is here on his tour of duty…
1.9 « the priests » : literally « the priesthood » sing genitive of SACERDOTIUM
1.9 EXIIT is from EXEO, EXIRE « go out » (from EXIGO, it would be EXEGIT) I understand SORTE (yes, singular ablative of means) EXIIT UT as « it happened (« went out » as a resultate) by casting lots that he… »
1.9 INGRESSUS : difficult form. Here not a genitive from INGRESSUS, US but a perfect participle of the deponent verb INGREDIOR, INGRESSUS SUM, INGREDI « walk in » in the singular nominative masculine, agreeing with the subject of PONERET « that he place incense, having walked into the temple… »
1.10 Yes, a remote genitive
1.10 « for incense that hour » : rather « at incense time » (like « tea time »), say that as you please. HORA is an ablative of time, denoting a moment.
Now, there is an English translation available on the Perseus site :
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0060%3Abook%3DLuke
but it translates Luke’s Greek text ! You will have to be cautious using it, although Jerome remains always very close to the Greek.
Read you soon !
Ahh this makes much more sense. Is the clause here, following ut, a result clause instead of a jussive clause?
I see, is it commonplace to use an adjective in this way? I’ll make sure to watch out for this.
Ok, Ill post what I have so far. I was able to translate a few more verses today so there’ll be many verses. If you dont have time, Ill post the questions I had with certain verses in parenthesis so you won’t have to read through them all.
1.11 the angel of God appeared, therefore, standing upon the right side of the alter,
1.12 and a confused Zaccharias was seeing and fear came down over him.
1.13 However, the angel told him not to fear, because your prayer is heard and your wife Elisabeth will bear you a son, and you will name him Johannus ( John? ),
1.14 and he will be a great joy to you, and exaulted ( ?? I couldnt find exultatio anywhere! ) , and many will rejoice in his ?? ( I couldnt find nativitate either! ),
1.15 He will truly be a great man in God’s presence, and he will never drink wine and ?? ( sicera? wine and such things? ), and he will be nourished by the Spirit of God in addition to his mother’s womb,
1.16 and he will convert many of the sons of Israel to their ruling God,
1.17 and he will place before him in spirit and virtue of Helia ( who’s this? ) so he may wisely convert the father’s heart into the sons, and the unfit to the knowledge of the laws, to prepare a perfect people for God.
1.18 And Saccharias said to the angel: Under this, I know I am truly an old man, and my wife is advanced in days.
1.19 And the angel, responding, said: I am Gabriel, who stands before God, and I have come to tell you and to evangelize to you ( Evangalize means ‘preach’ to me, is there a more appropriate translation? I couldnt find this one in my dictionary either. )
1.20 and Look! You will be silent and not be able to speak, until the day on which these things will be done, because you do not believe ( I used active voice here instead of the passive, is this ok? The passive seemed really awkward to me. ) that my words will come to pass in your time ( the word’s time? or Z. and E.'s time? )
1.21 and the people were expecting Zaccharias, because he was delayed in the temple.
1.22 He came out, however he couldn’t speak to them, and they understood that he had seen a vision in the temple, and he gave a nod to them, and he was completely mute.
1.23 And so it was, that with his day’s duties completed ( this smells wrong to me ) he went home,
1.24 However, after these days, his wife Elizabeth conceived and she hid for five months, saying:
1.25 Because God has done so much for me, in five days he regarded to remove my disgrace ( this is actually opprobrium, isn’t it? ) among men
1.26 Therefore, in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God into the city in Galilee which was named Nazareth ( this is the later use of civitatem? I think Wheelock used it to mean state.. )
1.27 to a virgin, whose name was Mary, engaged to a man, whose name was Joseph, of David’s house,
1.28 and the angel entered saying to her: Hello! Much of God’s favor is with you who are spoken well of among women, ( the last part is odd to me )
Many thanks as always, this is great fun for me =)
Vale, Magister!
A little slice of Luke today :
1.11 AUTEM : not « therefore », the meaning being « on the other hand » (you will find the adequate English word : « and indeed » or « yet » ??)
1.12 (Lit.) « Z. was confused seeing (him)… »
1.13 « …said to him : ‘Do not fear, Zaccharias,…’ » ; « Johannes » [John, indeed]
1.14 EXULTATIO : the normal spelling is EXSULTATIO (, -ONIS, fem) « springing up, exultation » ; NATIVITATE ablative from NATIVITAS, - ATIS, fem., « birth »
1.15 SICERA « an intoxicating drink », and a Hebrew word
1.15 ADHUC EX… Perseus : « even from … » (from the very start of his life, he will be « filled with the Holy Spirit », i.e. under supernatural influence : you will see this notion often in Luke)
1.17 PRAECEDET « he will go before » ANTE ILLUM (=DEUM) « before Him » (God), i.e. he will be God’s champion ; HELIAE from HELIAS, more frequently ELIAS, -AE, masc « Elijah »
1.17 « wisely » : which word is it ?
1.17 « the father’s heart into the sons » : yes, but I don’t understand what it means
1.17 INCREDIBILES « unbelievers »
1.17 AD PRUDENTIAM IUSTORUM rather « (he will convert the unbelievers) to the good sense of the just (men)
VALE
Note : in 1.17 "so he may convert the father’s heart into the sons, "
is a citation from Malachi 4.6 et convertet cor patrum ad filios et cor filiorum ad patres eorum ne forte veniam et percutiam terram anathemate “He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.” (from Perseus) The meaning is that Johannes will be a new Elijah.
1.18 UNDE (from where ; under is SUB) HOC SCIAM : from where will I know this ? (Z. is sceptical, he asks for a sign that angel’s words are true)
1.19 EVANGELIZO : « to preach, declare, proclaim, always with the accessory notion of bringing good tidings, proclaiming the Gospel » (Lewis and Short)
1.20 (Your translation makes sense but where is the passive that you modified into an active ?) At the end it is «in return for (PRO) the fact (EO sigular neuter ablative from IS) that you did not believe in my words (dative) which will come to pass in their (SUO) time »
1.23 ET FACTUM EST, « And [this] happened : », seems to be a mere transition introducing a new idea. You will see that very often, like « Look ! » also. UT with the indicative means here « when »
1.25 QUIA is normally « because » but in later Latin (and in medieval Latin) it means often simply « that » (say that…) ; moreover, here it is simply equivalent to « : » (following a Greek usage). Here Elisabeth expresses his joy. QUIBUS is not « five », it is the relative pronoun : « in the days in which he regarded to remove my disgrace » (yes, it is), but RESPEXIT AUFERRE is barely Latin and much more Greek.
1.26 AUTEM don’t mean exactly « therefore ». Basically, it is «one the other hand » (« therefore » : IGITUR, ERGO, maybe ITAQUE)
1.26 ( this is the later use of civitatem? I think Wheelock used it to mean state.. ) you are right but Jerome is not so wrong : CIVITAS denotes an ancient political organisation (Greek POLIS, hence « politics » etc.) which was a « city-state », i.e. a little independent state with basically one real « town » surrounded by a country with villages. In Cicero and Caesar, it is a « state », but in post-Augustan authors (Petronius, Tacitus) it is sometimes a « city » (although seldom).
1.28 It is odd to you but it is the source of the « Hail Mary », a very popular catholic prayer :
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a92.htm
Thank you for the continuing help!!!
My instructor is turning up my pace now, so I’ll have to produce much more translations after this posting. He would like the first four chapters, or as much of it as I can do, by next Tuesday. Ill try to post up what ive done if you want, but to reduce the time needed to read, Ill try to ask very specific questions before I post, after this message.
Ahh, this helps out a lot. This passage gave me particular trouble. ‘Wisely’ must have came from cordate, I must have reread it later and changed it to ‘heart’. The meaning was a nice addition too, many thanks!
In 1.20, I think I read the -isti as being passive… it was pretty late at night =)
1.29 Who, although seeming to be disorganized in her speech, and who was thinking what kind of greeting that was, ( this one was tough for me, I dont think its completely correct )
1.30 And the Angel said to her: Do not be afraid, Mary, you are found truly loved before God.
1.31 Look! You will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus
1.32 Here he will be great, and be called Son of the Highest, and the Ruling God (I hear this is Lord God) will give to him the throne of David, their father,
1.33 and he will reign in the House of Jacob permanently, and his kingdom will never end.
1.34 But Mary said to the angel: How will I bear him, since I’ve never known a man?
1.35 And the Angel said, responding: The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the spirit of the Highest will cover you, and the child will be called the Son of God.
1.36 And look! Your relative Elisabeth has herself concieved a son, in her old age, and this month is the sixth of her (pregnancy?) who is called sterile
1.37 Because every word will not be impossible before God. (Because no word will be impossible before God)
1.38 But Mary said: Look! A servant of God bears to me your second word, and the Angel departed from her.
1.39 Recovering her strength in those days, Mary left into the mountains with haste, into the nation of Juda
1.40 And she entered into Zaccharias’ house and greeted Elisabeth,
1.41 And so it was that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child jumped for joy in her womb, and the Holy Spirit replenished Elisabeth.
1.42 and she cried out in a strong voice and said: Praise to you among women, and praise to the fruit of your womb.
1.43 And where is this for me, that the mother of my God might come to me (Im not sure about this one, I used your recommendation for UNDE, but the sentence doesnt hold together in my mind. The text Im translating has no punctuation or macrons, is there something Im missing?)
1.44 Look! Yes, this is done, the voice of your greeting in my ears! The infant in my womb jumped about in rejoicing!
1.45 And happy is she who believed, because those things will be completed which have been said by God.
1.46 and Mary said: my soul makes much of God,
1.47 and my spirit rejoiced in God in my greeting (how does ‘salutari meo’ read at the end of this sentence? Are they still talking about Mary’s greeting to Elisabeth?)
1.48 Because he regarded the humility of his slave girls; Look! For from this, all generations will call me blessed.
1.49 Because he has done great things for me, he who is strong and who’s name is Holy. ( the last part is thrown together.. but it seems to work. What would you suggest?)
Many thanks as always!
Thank you for the continuing help!!!
My instructor is turning up my pace now, so I’ll have to produce much more translations after this posting. He would like the first four chapters, or as much of it as I can do, by next Tuesday. Ill try to post up what ive done if you want, but to reduce the time needed to read, Ill try to ask very specific questions before I post, after this message.
Ahh, this helps out a lot. This passage gave me particular trouble. ‘Wisely’ must have came from cordate, I must have reread it later and changed it to ‘heart’. The meaning was a nice addition too, many thanks!
In 1.20, I think I read the -isti as being passive… it was pretty late at night =)
And now the new passages,
1.29 Who, although seeming to be disorganized in her speech, and who was thinking what kind of greeting that was, ( this one was tough for me, I dont think its completely correct )
1.30 And the Angel said to her: Do not be afraid, Mary, you are found truly loved before God.
1.31 Look! You will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you will name him Jesus
1.32 Here he will be great, and be called Son of the Highest, and the Ruling God (I hear this is Lord God) will give to him the throne of David, their father,
1.33 and he will reign in the House of Jacob permanently, and his kingdom will never end.
1.34 But Mary said to the angel: How will I bear him, since I’ve never known a man?
1.35 And the Angel said, responding: The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the spirit of the Highest will cover you, and the child will be called the Son of God.
1.36 And look! Your relative Elisabeth has herself concieved a son, in her old age, and this month is the sixth of her (pregnancy?) who is called sterile
1.37 Because every word will not be impossible before God. (Because no word will be impossible before God)
1.38 But Mary said: Look! A servant of God bears to me your second word, and the Angel departed from her.
1.39 Recovering her strength in those days, Mary left into the mountains with haste, into the nation of Juda
1.40 And she entered into Zaccharias’ house and greeted Elisabeth,
1.41 And so it was that when Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child jumped for joy in her womb, and the Holy Spirit replenished Elisabeth.
1.42 and she cried out in a strong voice and said: Praise to you among women, and praise to the fruit of your womb.
1.43 And where is this for me, that the mother of my God might come to me (Im not sure about this one, I used your recommendation for UNDE, but the sentence doesnt hold together in my mind. The text Im translating has no punctuation or macrons, is there something Im missing?)
1.44 Look! Yes, this is done, the voice of your greeting in my ears! The infant in my womb jumped about in rejoicing!
1.45 And happy is she who believed, because those things will be completed which have been said by God.
1.46 and Mary said: my soul makes much of God,
1.47 and my spirit rejoiced in God in my greeting (how does ‘salutari meo’ read at the end of this sentence? Are they still talking about Mary’s greeting to Elisabeth?)
1.48 Because he regarded the humility of his slave girls; Look! For from this, all generations will call me blessed.
1.49 Because he has done great things for me, he who is strong and who’s name is Holy. ( the last part is thrown together.. but it seems to work. What would you suggest?)
Many thanks as always!