Did you compose that? It’s nice I like that.
re: episc.
yeah, i did, though i am not fond of its being so diaeretic; nonetheless, i just thought more weight would be added to my request if were in verse itself. speaking of which, have you yet succombed to the sweet siren of Elegia and her elder sister Calypso?
re: chad
αὖτις )ολυμπιονῖκαι ὁμοῦ στεφανωθήσονται
οἴκαδε δ’ ἴξονται χρυσῷ ἐς )αντιπόδας
ah, ever better. your skilled use of polysyllables is most splendid. as regards correption over the 3rd wk caes., i have only witnessed it at sense pauses (as for instance in W’s example). it would, i think, be skewed logic, however, to allow this to take away from the lines’ art.
the pent. is better still, wherein you choose to exercise the power of the Correptive hand once more. thankyou for reminding me, via the latter hemiepes, that the first syllable of chrusos is long, a fact which i have recently overlooked. perhaps the delta introduced causa metri in the first foot may be better replaced by g’?
i like.
re: beni
quid ridetis acres || hostes mihi Musae
me errantem aspecta || quomodo labar ego
the flow of the sense is nice here, combined with a fine poetic sentiment. there is, however, a rather alarming issue at hand. the situation seems rather reminiscent of Naso’s complaint at Amores.I.2, that ol’ Cupid has stolen a foot, for is not your hexameter only so by name? often when scribbling out a line, my positioning gets thrown by the caesura and i occasionally forget to compose a fourth foot; it looks as though a similar beast has reared its head with you. such a situation is easily healed with the insertion of misero or some such adj. before mihi. perhaps such triple alliteration may add to (the surely commendable) employment of double elision in the pentameter. the latter is, ut opinor, a nice touch. indeed, it reminds me of cat.73.6, the elegiac pentameter with the most elision from the classical period:
quam modo qui me unum atque unicum amicum habuit.
West (David, i hasten to add, not Martin) has asserted that this line shows Catullus’ deep emotion. more eminent names, i should think, have dismissed this line as rather crap composition. nonetheless, catullus is not to be taken as a model, for he really only nursed Elegia as a child.
perhaps here may be an opportune time to iterate my couplet entitled
-elegeion elisionis-
inconcinnum incompositumque inceptum Elegiae ora /
usque eludereque elidereque immodice est.
the couplet is in metre with elision between every word, and, by the glorious magic of synaephea, elision between the two lines.
i hope everyone has enjoyed their metrical excursus thus far, and i look forward to seeing further efforts from all, i.e. additional verses by the erudite fellows involved thus far and the diligent still coming round to post.
~D
μουσάων ἀρχώμεθ’ )ολύμπια δώματ’ ἐχουσῶν,
αἵ ποθ’ (ομήρῳ ἔδον μῦθον ἄεισαι ἀεί,
(ησίοδόν τ’ ἐνέπνευσαν· ὑβριστοτέρην στίχ’ ἀοιδῆς
συγγνῶτε στεφάνῳ, τέκνα διὸς μεγάλου·
μὴ ποιεῖν ἐλεγεῖά τέ μοι δότε ῥήμα τε φαῦλα·
τέκνα μνημοσύνης, τοιάδ’ ἀλάλκετέ μοι.
Ay, Cupid has just made my list, right under the Muses and of course Venus (whose name must come first). Actually, it was I who stole my own foot whilst trying too quickly to appease Turpissimum cui nulla culpa est. Misero was not having it, but I think this will make it complete:
quid ridetis acres hostiles o mihi musae
me errantem aspecta quomodo labar ego
to be read as:
quid ri/detis ac/res || hos/tiles / o mihi / musae
m[e] errant[em] aspecta || quomodo / labar e/go
I finished the prosody section of A&G yesterday (I was on a long flight), so I think I have a pretty good grasp of the hex-/pentameter. I am disappointed that my verbs do not agree in number, but I may yet find a way around that. By sheer luck my caesurae show a sense break (the first verse if regarded as “why do you laugh, bitter ones? O muses you are hostile to me”). Also, apparently it is common for the word preceding the caesura to modify the word at the end of the line, which occurs in my first verse.
Two questions if you don’t mind concerning verse in general:
- when is hiatus permitted or preferred? (whenever the poet wants it I hope!)
- When two vowels are elided, and the first one is long as uni erit, does the elided syllable become long?
- Bonus Question: scito + indirect discourse = future infinitive or present infinitive? I should think present (same time infinitive) but I am tragically separated from my OLD for the week.
perhaps here may be an opportune time to iterate my couplet entitled
-elegeion elisionis-inconcinnum incompositumque inceptum Elegiae ora /
usque eludereque elidereque immodice est.the couplet is in metre with elision between every word, and, by the glorious magic of synaephea, elision between the two lines.
Ah, I remember you posting this, but I was far too ignorant to appreciate it at the time. Well done!
Mousa/wn a)rxw/meq’ )Olu/mpia dw/mat’ e)xousw=n,
ai(/ poq’ (Omh/rw| e)/don mu=qon a)/eisai a)ei/,
(Hsi/odo/n t’ e)ne/pneusan: u(bristote/rhn sti/x’ a)oidh=j
suggnw=te Stefa/nw|, te/kna Dio\j mega/lou:
mh\ poiei=n e)legei=a/ te/ moi do/te r(h/ma te fau=la:
te/kna Mnhmosu/nhj, toia/d’ a)la/lkete/ moi.
I wish to know what that says, as it seems to concern me!
i hope everyone has enjoyed their metrical excursus thus far, and i look forward to seeing further efforts from all, i.e. additional verses by the erudite fellows involved thus far and the diligent still coming round to post.
I too encourage others to try - it is very fun… and frustrating. It is sort of like a word puzzle, except that the product is something that you can cherish and present 
Marvellous work Will! Once again your combination of erudite dialectal curiosities and poetical imagination has resulted in a sublime elegiac result. Superb.
Yes, Benissime, the couplets do concern you. A rough translation of them might run ‘Let us occupy the Olympian palace of the Muses in their willingness, Muses who long ago bestowed Homer with stories to sing for evermore and breathed inspiration upon Hesiod. Grant Stephen, daughters of Great Zeus, a more insulting* line for his poem, and grant too that I do not compose worthless elegiacs with worthless expressions, children of Mnemosyne, but ward off such things from me!’
- I imagine Will has a better translation for this word, as I may well be on the wrong lines. I imagine the missing letter of stich’ is a and that it is a cheaky Annisesque formation by analogy from the defective noun *stix, which only occurs in the gen. sing. and nom. & acc. pl. - I think we have addressed this before!
As regards your verses Benissimus, they are ever improving. The change of number is, alas, in need of repair. Perhaps the construction at the start of the pentameter could be altered, and the exclamation en! (scanning long) could begin it? hostiles is ok grammatically, but a molossus (three longs) was generally avoided after the third strong because of its over-ponderous effect. I should imagine misero is ok thus: quid ridetis, acres hostes, misero mihi Musae?
As to your questions:
Hiatus is to be completely avoided for our purposes, except in certain exclamatory uses of O, such as in O utinam, which scans as a dactyl followed by a long and is a common line opener.
In elision, the elided syllable is completely discounted and the scansion is dependent only on the beginning syllable of the following word, thus vidi ego, which is found eleven times in Ovid, scans as a dactlyl. (the shortening of the o in ego is common throughout elegy, as with parenthetic puto and scio.) The elision of long ‘i’ (and ‘a’, ‘u’ and diphthongs) is to be avoided, however, except before ‘ego’.
As to scito(te) it typically takes the acc. and fut. infin., though i have seen cases of pf. pass. infin as well - it depends on the sense. scito(te) is incidentally found nowhere in Ovid, though scite exists at Met.15.142 and Trist.4.10.89.
I’m glad you’re enjoying versifying.
I have now finished collating the document on Latin elegiac verse, and with the help of Will it should be available shortly.
~D
They do. 
I found “Benissimus” metrically intractable in Greek (not 100%, but Stephanos solved problems).
A rough translation of them might run ‘Let us occupy the Olympian palace of the Muses in their willingness, Muses who long ago bestowed Homer with stories to sing for evermore and breathed inspiration upon Hesiod. Grant Stephen, daughters of Great Zeus, a more insulting* line for his poem, and grant too that I do not compose worthless elegiacs with worthless expressions, children of Mnemosyne, but ward off such things from me!’
This translation is quite polished and liberal rather than literal. The most important point is that I’m using συγγιγνώσκω here in the sense of “forgive,” so it should be “Daughters of great Zeus, forgive Stephen (for) his hubristic line of song,”
My goal was a rhapsodic (i.e., Homer reciter style) invocation of the Muses. I’ve mixed in a few traditional elements:
- common formulaic epithets appear several times
- start off with “we start with the deity” - Muses here - and then
- a relative clause describing past favors, “who granted Homer to sing…”
I just worked in a plea for forgiveness on your behalf.
I now think the last line should start off with κοῦραι rather than τέκνα, for variation.
I’m using the comparative as a mild emphatic.
I imagine the missing letter of stich’ is a and that it is a cheaky Annisesque formation by analogy from the defective noun *stix, which only occurs in the gen. sing. and nom. & acc. pl. - I think we have addressed this before!
It is a very annoying word. In fact, I find I have the most trouble with words of this pattern: CCvCv… (where v=short vowel, C=consonant). The initial st- forces a heavy syllable right before it, no matter what. 
In any case, the accusative singular στίχα is fortunately attested in L&S this time, unlike my earlier impertinence with the dative plural.
you are, i am embarrassed to say, quite right about the existence of the acc.sg. form. however, if it weren’t for the anonymous epigram on Democritus of Abdera and Diodorus Siculus’ citation of an epigram (perhaps the same) with it in, it would not exist. but, alas, it does. the form of such words can be difficult, though are often friendly after a third strong caesura. at least you are not putting ‘sticha’ in latin, wherein no short vowel can precede st-, for the position is altogether avoided!
I suspected a comparison of emphasis, though my differing translation of suggignwskw did not welcome it. It makes the more sense now.
I’ve emailed you the doc.
~D
Here is the link to my notes on Latin elegiac verse composition, very kindly hosted by will, that is, annis.
http://www.aoidoi.org/articles/ktl/LatinElegiacs.pdf
~D
OK, my Latin prose is already absolutely terrible, so my Latin poetry is hardly better, but here goes… 
Sōr-dĭ-dŭs**|hōr-tŭs ĭs|ēt||laū-|rūs tŭ(a) ă-|rēs-cĭt
Ō mī|hōr-tĕ rŏ-|saē||mārcŭĭt|ātquĕ bră-|**tŭs
Isn’t the cutting in the pentameter called a diæresis? My textbook says so.
Thank you Whiteoctave for the links*, although I did overstep some commands (I couldn’t get enough dactyls, but alas, there is no hope for me; no-one shall pardon these errrors…).
I await your criticisms with anticipation, horror, dread, fear and “ready to weep” lacrimal glands.
*(and Annis for the hosting Whiteoctave’s wonderful page on composing elegiacs)
i like the sound and theme of your couplet very much, and there are few mistakes that need comment.
most importantly, alas, you’ve fallen foul of the mendum Benissimense of only having five feet in the hexameter. It should not exercise you too much to add a foot - a spondee would be nice.
I am puzzled about ‘is’ - the best explanation for it seems to be English ‘is’ which has slipped in (this once happened rather amusingly to a word in my pentameter). If instead it is meant to be a form of is, ea, id - this pronoun is exempt from elegiacs. there is an ‘est’ missing somewhere, but this may be the reason. the ‘hortus’ will be useful in helping you fix things, for it begins, effectively, with a vowel.
The vocative is nice, though mi would not precede h without elision. It may be better for prosody and variation to use a new word for garden here. Is ‘rosae’ a defining genitive or a pl.? If the latter micuit (a nice verb) would need to be pluralised. Finally ‘bratus’ is a lovely word, and very rare too (only, I think, in Pliny’s Natural History).
So, there is some tweaking in order but it could turn out to be a truly sterling first effort.
A diaeresis is a break between words that coincides with a break in feet. A caesura is just a break in feet. To call the break in the pentameter a diaeresis would be true (and better), but the thought of it as the hepthimemeral caesura found in the hexameter is ingrained upom me!
~D
i was turning Auden’s ‘Epitaph on a tyrant’ yesterday into elegiacs (Latin), and have been unable so far to obtain a satisfactory closing line. I can get lines to fulfil the necessary rules, but the last line needs a certain elegance and power, as in the original.
The poem runs:
Perfection, of a kind, was what he was after
And the poetry he invented was easy to understand;
He knew human folly like the back of his hand,
And was greatly interested in armies and fleets;
When he laughed, respectable senators burst with laughter,
And when he cried the little children died in the streets.
I have taken pains to equate an English line with the latter.
Anyhow, there is quite a large amount of information in the latter to get in. For “and when he cried” i have the elliptic construction “cum lacrimos” which has the verb “ediderat” (pluperfect tense for frequentative sense) scilicet from the preceding verse’s “cum risum ediderat”.
I would be interested to see what people can come up with, remembering that the last word needs to be disyllabic and either a noun or a verb here. The sense may need to be tweaked, but not changed.
Greek suggestions would be interesting, in order to show the discrepancy that the languages can often hold in composition. Versions with a disyllablic close, though not essential in Greek elegies, would be looked upon with a welcome eye.
~D
Greek suggestions would be interesting, in order to show the discrepancy that the languages can often hold in composition.
here’s a quick version in greek, just a plain translation (into a pentameter, which is what u wanted in latin i think)…
[size=150]κλαύσαντος δ’ ἔθανον παῖδες ἐν αὐτόθ’ ὁδῷ.[/size]
and when he cried, the children died in the street on the spot.
the first word is a 1-word aorist genitive absolute: i’ve seen 1-word gen absolutes in herodotus… the rest is self-explanatory, although can i ask, can you can slip the adverb between “in” and “street” in elegaics like this? thanks
klausantos is neat. the interposition of adverb between preposition and governed noun is not unheard of, and, if used, would most likely be found in the pentameter.
you could go for poetic singular and write:
klau/santoj d’ e)/qanen paida/rion kaq’ o(do/n.
which captures the littleness of the victim(s). i leave the final step to you, of getting the plural back, therefore restoring ethanon and having the two hemiepes rhyme. di’ or kath’ hodon will have to stay to allow that.
as regards a latin version,
cum lacrimas, cecidit filia parva foris
is the best i have come up with so far. i used poetic singular in the line before, so the senator laughing inside is contrasted with his daughter dying outside. i still do not like the fact it ends with an adverb. the pentameter is, of course, not to have any weight or real significance before its closing word is read. my pentameter has dealt all its punches by filia. parva puella would delay the noun a bit, but i then lose the explicit link between senator and daughter that aids the antithesis.
in latin one ought not end a pentameter with prepositional phrases - a further restriction! adverbs end the line pentameter in Ovid once about every 45 couplets!
~D
i think i’ve solved it now.
cum lacrimas, media filia caesa via est.
prodelision of est at the end of the pentameter is v common, and medius is one of the few superb adjectives that can carry a locative sense in itself.
~D
I don’t understand… is is meant to be a form of is, ea, id… what do you mean when you say exempt from elegiacs?
Rosae is meant to be genitive singular; “rose garden”.
I’ll try my best to fix those errors.
as i say, the errors shouldn’t be too big a problem to fix and the effort is very good.
is, as a form of is/ea/id is in an odd position. more importantly, forms of the pronoun is/ea/id were used so rarely in Ovidian composition that they should not be used. besides, such little monosyllables are jarring on the ear, don’t you think?
rosae as a defining genitive in the singular seems unnatural in latin, but if you wish to retain it ‘a garden of rose’ rings nicely in english at any rate.
~D
What about this?
Sōr-dĭ-dŭs**|hōr-tŭs ĕt|ēst||laū-|rūs tŭ(a) ă-|rēs-cĭt ăc|ū-rĭt
Ō rŭ-dĭs|hōr-tĕ rŏ-|saē||mār-cŭ-ĭt|āt-quĕ bră-|**tŭs
I had to mess the word order up, and I don’t know how to change rosae; I can’t fit rosarium in.
This aria is given to the wife of Julius Polybius, who is distraught at the sight of her garden; when it comes to rosae I think there should be a sudden change of key, orchestration and harmony (I don’t think I’ll use counterpoint here).
the line is better now, qua its scansion, but there are some problems with word order. et for instance makes no sense where it does, and the positioning of acurit is rather jarring. (i don’t know the word acurit; if you mean accurit, it wouldn’t scan there.)
the first hemiepes can be rearranged to sordidus est hortus, which will scan if the next word is a consonant.
something like ‘sordidus est hortus laurusque manet sed arescit’ would scan, but perhaps you don’t like the sense.
the vocative phrase now takes up the former hemiepes of the pentameter, which is neat, and should accordingly be separated by a comma. (you could get ’ o rosarum horte’ as this hemiepes, if the following word began with two consonants, the first of which not being ‘s’).
the latter hemiepes however, cannot really make sense with atque positioned in the middle, for it acts like ‘et’, not enclitic ‘-que’. what is the specific sense you want in english?
~D
Oh dear…
I wanted the meaning to be something like: The garden is dirty, your laurel withers; Oh wild rose garden, you are withering, along with your conifer.
Acurit??? It should read as ac urit, but uro is a transitive only verb, isn’t it?
I’ve changed the hexameter to:
Sōr-dĭ-dŭs **|ēst hōr|**tūs **||tūr|pīs-qu(e) ĕt ă|**rēs-cīt **|**laū-rūs
I’m struggling with the pentameter: the rule that one should have a disyllabic word at the end of the pentameter is proving to be a real headache.