re: can't we do something else? elegiacs.

evening all,

i imagine many of you are not currently overloaded with things to do, especially in the scholarly field.
accordingly, i challenge all people interested to write an elegiac couplet. just one - in latin or greek.

most of you, i should think, are familiar with basic prosody and can scan. if not, there are many fine sites online that can introduce you to the basics (for that is all here necessary).

the mechanics of the metre are very simple. an elegiac couplet consists of two verses, the former in dactylic hexameter, the latter in dactylic pentameter.
the most basic metrical rules that must be followed are these:

for the hexameter:
-the first four feet should be either a dactyl (long-short-short) or a spondee (long-long)
-the fifth foot must be a dactyl (special licence for Greek proper names and effect need not be considered at present)
and the sixth a spondee or trochee (long-short)
-there must be a caesura (i.e. a gap between words in a foot) after the long of the third foot (so-called ‘third strong’ caesura) OR, if this is not the case, a caesura after the first short of the third foot (‘third weak’) backed up by BOTH a strong in the second AND in the fourth.
-the metrical scheme for the hexameter is thus:
(~ marks long; u marks short; / separates feet; // marks main caesura):

~ u u / ~ u u / ~// u u / ~ u u/ ~ u u / ~ ~
~ ~ / ~ ~ / ~ // ~ / ~ ~ / ~ u u / ~ u

for each foot either the top or bottom option is available, though the fifth foot dactyl needs to be adhered. i have not included the much rarer pattern of caesurae (2nd s + 3rd w + 4th s).

if we take the opening line to Ovid’s Amores (i will use Latin as the explanatory language, for here it is commoner to more), we see:

Arma gravi numero violentaque bella parabam

which can be broken down thus:

Arm-a gra- - first foot dactyl
-vi nu-me - second foot dactyl
-o // vio- - third foot dactyl with typical strong caesura
-lentaque - fourth foot dactyl
bella par- - fifth foot dactyl
-abam - sixth foot trochee

the line is thus as dactylic as possible (Ovid’s purpose, incidentally, is to pretend that he is writing epic at the very start so the characteristic tum-ti-ti of the dactylic hexameter is over-used. lines with the first four feet as dactyls number only 6.7% in the Corpus Ovidianum.)


the following line is the pentameter, so called (rather inappropriately) because the metrical ‘value’ of its constituents ‘add up’ to five dactylic feet.

the main rules for the pentameter:

-the first half of the line has two feet that can be either dactyls or spondees, followed by a long syllable (this can be long of itself or lengthened by position)
-the second half of the line has to be two dactyls, followed by an anceps (i.e. either a long or a short syllable).
-there must be caesura after the end of the first half (so after the long on its own).

the metrical scheme runs thus:

~ u u / ~ u u / ~ // ~ u u / ~ u u / ~
~ ~ / ~ ~ / ~ // ~ u u / ~ u u / u


so if we look at the following line of the Amores’ inception:

edere, materia conveniente modis.

we have:

edere - first foot dactyl
materi - second foot dactyl
a - long syllable
caesura
conveni - third foot dactyl
ente mo - fourth foot dactyl
dis - long syllable

Ovid has continued the silliness and retained as many dactlys as possible in this line.

One final essential point needs to be observed for the pentameter line of LATIN elegiacs:

the last word must be disyllabic, i.e. words of three syllables (or more) or monosyllables are prohibited. [for those interested, prodelided forms of sum are permitted and Greek proper names of polysyllabic nature are occasionally accepted, but are not to be imitated here.]

so, i hope my instructions have not been too haphazard and that the basics are understood. if any of you can pull off a couplet, that would be superb. if anyone is especially interested, i will append some more detailed notes on the latin elegiac (for it was more polished metrically, in the guise of Ovid, than the counterpart of its sister language).

happy versifying.

~D

any questions will be answered with interest.

My choice of words appears to be considerably limited.

Hmmm, I suppose if I shuffle them round a great deal I may be able to produce something…perhaps…

Eng-Lat dictionaries: smith is all online at
http://www.grexlat.com/biblio/smith/
and you just have to download a little
program on the right to view it. also there is a smaller version at
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=Latin


eng-Grk: woodhouse is online at http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/Woodhouse/

Perseus also has eng-grk at
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?author=All+Texts&sortop=Sort+Words+Alphabetically&display=


such dictionaries are of little use, of course, unless author usage and
specific context is checked in LSJ or OLD/L&S.

~D

It’ll have to be perseus for me. I’m running WinXP and Mozilla 0.9.2 as my web browser. I’m not switching back to the insecurity of automatically loaded ActiveX plug ins for love or money.

ok.

some minor further points:

work out the english first, then tackle the end of the hexameter, then the start, and fill the middle.
in a single couplete it is best to have the punctuation (if any) at either the end of the hexameter or at the main caesura of the pentameter, the last full or half pentameter somehow responding to or qualifying the rest.
the hexameter should end with a di- or tri-syllabic word, though a monosyllable with good cause is permissible here.
the last dissyllabic word of the pentameter should not be an adjective or adverb, but a verb, noun or pronoun.
it is favourable for both the hexameter and the pentameter to start with a dactyl rather than a spondee.
don’t forget that final -m elides before a vowel and ‘h’ - therefore no short syllable can end in ‘m’.
a word with a cretic rhythm (long-short-long) can go NOWHERE!
[the first solo long syllable of the pentameter (i.e. the syllable between the third and fourth feet) should not be a monosyllable, unless preceeded by another monosyllable or a word that is a pyrrhic (short-short)]

~D

(hex.) dulcia permultos facturos carmina spero.

Work out the English first? I think the best way for me is to assemble a bag of suitably themed words and concoct verse therefrom.

I seem to have rather a lot of spondees and not too many dactyls.

[size=134]ῶ λευκογδοάδη[/size]… er.

Um.

That’s a hemiepes at least… Unless you have some other way you prefer your login to be rendered into Greek. If so, I beg that it not contain cretics.

Yes, I realize the metrical possibilities of my username are limited.

However, progress is being made. He is within my sights.

nunc oculos adhibe, sapiens Turpissime, verbis:
δεῖ σε νόμους αὐτοὺς προστιθέναι γε μέτρου.

And W, I like the ingenuity of your hemiepes a lot!

~D

the last word must be disyllabic, i.e. words of three syllables (or more) or monosyllables are prohibited.

Always?

What about Martial -

“Vicini non somnum tota nocte rogamus
Nam vigilare leve est; pervigilare grave est.”

I suppose the elision means “grave est” is counted as one word.

I always remember this couplet whenever my neighbours are playing “Steps” at two o’clock in the morning.

as i mentioned in brackets earlier on, prodelided forms of sum, especially est are tolerated at the close of the pentameter, for they form the latter syllable when prodelided with the preceeding disyllable.

~D

Where are the efforts of, say, Benissimus, Annis, Jeff, Skylax, Mariek, Paul, Eureka, Chad, Episcopus etc?

come on…

The inevitable vocab question.
To say “Midwest” as in the US, “medias occasus”? Or would that be referring to Gaul, Germany, etc.?

it may well be best to use the neo-latin America (which has a long ‘i’). medias occasus would not really make much geographical sense to a Roman.

(pent.) tu ‘media’, Ami, uti / non ‘America’ potes?

with Ami being a vocative scanning as a spondee (with rather unfriendly elision of a long ‘i’). the phrase need not be in the ablative, thankfully.

~D

[size=134]ἡμᾶς βουλόμενος σπεύδειν ποίημ’ ἐξαιτεῖς·
μὴ μούσαις ἐνοχλεῖ μὴ νέμεσις δικάσῃ[/size].

Hmmmm. This couplet reflects on my frustration at finding a theme:

Insipientia est grave quam stulte toleramus.
Complet mentem sed pagina est vacua.

How about that? I think it would take a man of exeptional modesty not to feel proud at having produced that on a first attempt. And I am certainly not a man of exceptional modesty.

Of course the use of the first person plural was a common way for the poet to talk about himself. For example, Martial VI.60

Laudat, amat, cantat nostros mea Roma libellos,
meque sinus omnes, me manus omnis habet.
etc.

EDIT: for “grave quam” I’ll try “gravis et”. Always good practice to have one’s nouns and adjectives agree.

check your pm Turps,

my finest commendations to Will. with little surprise your prosody and syntax is without flaw (the thinking man indeed uses dative with enochlew!). the 5th foot spondee is a licence well used, surely for the gravity of my Draconian demands. finally, the flow of the pent., with such exquisite use of the two hemiepes, is to be envied by all.
i surely would, as you no doubt should, be proud.

~D

Oh no! Me miserum. I am totally ignorant of the rules of Latin poetry, and I am no good at composition of English, let alone Latin. :cry: :blush: :cry: :frowning: :cry:

I think I should use what I compose in my libretto (for a hopefully good Latin opera, which I entitle “Vesuvius et Campania”) , but I don’t know what to write about. The plot so far: after the celebratory night of Vulcanalia, where the drunk men have beseeched the god’s wife Venus for protection, but have turned the chorus into a debauched plea to Venus for love. Deeper into the night, a few Grecians give a small chorus that pleas with the Fates on the night (it is the day of Moira and Nemesea, please pardon my bad transliterated Greek). Another tremor strikes, but the Pompeiians dismiss as another troublesome tremor. The next morning, Eumachia (was she alive in 79AD?) goes out and admires the Bay of Naples. The fisherman from Herculaneum sings a small recitative hoping for a good catch, and a plea to Neptune. Next is a sinfonia called “Ad Forum”.

Then I’m stuck. :frowning:

Please help. Please. I beg you. Please. :cry: :blush: :cry:

When does a plosive and a “liquid” equal one consonant?

I admire you, Annis, even though I do not understand it.

If you’re asking about Latin poetry, Mike (I can call you mike, can’t I?), the rule seems to be that a word like patria can be scanned either -

pa-tri-a (short short short)

or -

pat-ri-a (long short short, in other words a dactyl)

And check your e-mail Dave. And thanks.

So a vowel ending in a plosive followed by a liquid means the syllable is long or short.

Not keen on “Mike”.

So a vowel ending in a plosive followed by a liquid means the syllable is long or short.

Not keen on “Mike”.

Yes. A syllable ending in a plosive (that’s another term for a stop isn’t it?), can be joined to the next liquid, or not, as the meter demands.

And fair enough, no Mike.