Has anyone ever heard of or could anyone speak to the possibility of someone, self-trained in the classics, ever making it into a program for an advanced degree in that field? Although a Late Starter, I’m not that old, and after about a quarter-million words of Latin am fairly well along in that language vs. the real major requirements that I’ve seen online. My Greek at the moment is based on Hardy & Handsen, which I got through as intensively as I could manage, and a pretty thorough review of everything through Crosby & Schaeffer. Thanks.
I know of someone who had only A Level qualifications (exams taken in the UK at 17/18 years of age) in Latin and Greek (no first degree) but was offered a place to study for a Masters. The person in question had a first degree in a science subject.
Unlikely but not absolutely imposs I’d say. I don’t know where you’re located. In US wd be v diff w/o BA in the field, but some institutns might be prepared to administer diagnostic tests to assess readiness. At my US univ (v.reputable) we admitted a top-level science prof at same univ to MA program because he demonstrated his competence and commitment. We wd’t have if we hadn’t known him. He went on to do a Phd within the normative time, all the while continuing to serve as fulltime faculty in his own dept. Exceptional of course.
In UK might be slightly less hard, since they are desperate for paying MA students. You cd do single language (Lat.) but you shd have some gk. You’ll need good recs. Don’t just put in a formal applicatn, contact people in dept., find out what you need to do to get accepted.
Why would you want to? do you honestly think you’d ever be competitive in the long run? The thing is, at any decent university, the language is a v. small part. It’s an “assumed competency” after a very short while, not a focus. You don’t need a formal degree in the Classics to enjoy them.
It CAN happen, sort of. In the UK I’ve known of people who came from different backgrounds (from the continent) as older students who enrolled in…I don’t want to say less reputable Universities…these are pretty good universities for subjects like medicine etc, just not for Classics…anyway and they took their Masters and moved on and up. So it CAN happen but apparently it’s a great hassle and difficult. To be frank, these people never seem to be any good.
It could go better for you if you prove the relevancy of your first degree (you would be surprised) in some way and make contact with the department beforehand. If you really want to, give it a go I guess.
Maybe he doesn’t want just to enjoy them (do you?), and this explains why he has this particular ambition in the first place.
I say this without the least intention of being confrontational, but whilst pragmatic considerations may be at the heart of your response (and arguably he gave you some licence to be ruthless), I’d be feeling a little slapped around the chops by some of your comments if I were LateStarter. For all we know, he might have something exceptional to offer, as I’m sure you feel you do.
Sorry but I don’t see it? I’m trying to be very pragmatic and I still think my advice is good as stands. I’m not saying he does or doesn’t have anything exceptional to offer (how would we know?), if anything I’m saying to play to his strengths and find the relevancy of his past experience. Especially because you do see interdisciplinary projects here and there that would benefit from a large range of other disciplines.
I see that my posting title has attracted the Brits, or that branch of the Anglophone community at any rate; I am however in the United States. I appreciate Scribo’s points: the “assumed competency,” the current academic perversity which appears to have, in the classics as in much else, overturned every commonsensical notion in terms of aesthetics and value to the detriment of the worthy and the advancement of many who have not historically been so deemed, and any number of similar objections to academics in general. At any rate, I was kicking around the idea of teaching the classics as my English degree, sans an educational license and a will to teach it, has stood me in poor stead in my job searches. Regarding my Latin, I’ve spent a great deal of time with Republican authors, have read all of Nepos, Caesar, Sallust, Catullus, Eutropius, the first two books of Livy and a very extensive amount of Cicero (too much to list) in all the genres he essayed. I think I’ve read more in sheer volume than many majors, if not yet as widely. (Except for random excerpts, poetry and later Latin are obviously underrepresented.) I’m just finishing reviewing Greek with a second text, as I stated, since I found it bewilderingly complex. So - that is a little bit more about me.
the “assumed competency,” the current academic perversity which appears to have, in the classics as in much else, overturned every commonsensical notion in terms of aesthetics and value to the detriment of the worthy and the advancement of many who have not historically been so deemed, and any number of similar objections to academics in general.
Can you explain what you have in mind here? I think Scribo’s “assumed competency” means simply that advanced degree programs in Classics at British and American universities–at least those with rigorous Classics programs–assume that students will be able at least to read and understand texts in Latin and Greek with enough fluency to follow advanced level courses. This is nothing new–if anything, standards of language fluency have overall probably been declining in Classics programs in recent years.
“Program,” “major,” in your first post: of course you’re in the US. You don’t say at what level you might want to teach. Secondary?, tertiary? That will make a big difference to the sort of advice I can give.
Secondary, I thought. There seemed to be a revival of interest for classics instruction at that level here, though perhaps it had already peaked when it started making the major newspapers a couple/few years ago. Obviously the job market would be a consideration.
The University of Virginia offers a master’s program for training secondary school Latin teachers that combines Latin and teaching credentials. You might want to look into this:
This program allows you to establish your competency in Latin without having an undergraduate degree, but if they test you, part of the test will almost certainly involve Latin poetry, and that will be true for any similar graduate program. If you think this sort of program would be appropriate for you, I’d suggest you start right away reading Vergil and Ovid, given that you haven’t read much poetry. Latin poetry is something of an artificial language requiring somewhat specialized skills that you will probably need to develop, but it shouldn’t be too difficult for you with your background in prose.
There may be other programs like this around the country.
I should mention that a couple of years ago, the Chair of the Board of Regents of UVa tried to push through an agenda that would have converted UVa from a research university into something like an on-line business school. The Classics Department was specifically mentioned as one of her targets for elimination. She was ultimately thwarted in this, but I’m not sure her agenda isn’t still in the air.
You might be able to combine teaching English with Latin and Greek, and you could probably enhance your marketability if you could also coach a sport or two.
Incidentally, for the record, I have no ties whatsoever to UVa, and I wouldn’t call myself a university-trained classicist (although many years ago I majored in Classics as an undergraduate).
I’d like to express my indebtedness and gratitude for this reply. Ovid at any rate is next; previously I wanted to keep returning to Cicero as a benchmark of sorts. Btw, if words still mean what they ought to, I’d humbly dissent and call you a university-trained classicist.
LateStarter, I’m sympathetic with your quest. On secondary teaching, the formal gateway is state certification requirements. The easiest way to learn these is to seek advice at a college with a big teacher education program, and a classics department. I live in Greensboro, North Carolina, where UNC-Greensboro matches those criteria. You can search the UNCG web site to find out how traditional students get qualified to teach h.s. Latin.
Once you understand that,then look for the non-traditional paths to qualifying to teach. Many states have alternative pathways. This will probably be a little harder to dig out, but you can find it.
A few practical thoughts. Getting into h.s. teaching is made easier if you can perform some of the collateral duties: coaching a sport, coaching debating teams, and so on. Another thing that helps is qualifying to teach a second academic field. I had college history advisees (history is a crowded field) who found jobs because they also could coach, teach math, or teach English.