Position of negative in X. An. 1.6.8

ὁ δὲ ἀπεκρίνατο ὅτι οὐδʼ εἰ γενοίμην, ὦ Κῦρε, σοί γʼ ἄν ποτε ἔτι δόξαιμι.

My translation:

He answered saying, “Cyrus, even if I should, to you at least I would never seem so.”

What puzzles me is that the negative is in the protasis but it’s effect is in the apodosis. Is this kind of construction common? And is there any special syntactical effect of using it?

Thanks! —Mitch

οὐδ’ isn’t part of the protasis – it negates the entire sentence. It’s position at the beginning gives it salience.

γ’ here doesn’t mean “at least.” It places emphasis on σοί. “Even if I were, you still would not think I was.”

Thanks Hylander, I was reading δοκέω as impersonal (“seems”) but it makes better sense here as “think” or “suppose”.

As for οὐδέ negating an entire sentence, CGCG chapter 56 Overview of Negatives doesn’t mention this kind of construction, and I tried searching Smyth and couldn’t find anything there either. Is this pretty unusual in Classical Greek? And FWIW it’s hard to understand how negating an entire conditional sentence works, because if I try this in English it just seems weird e.g. “If I was hungry, I would eat — not even!” sounds like Homer SImpson talking :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m also struggling with understanding γε as a particle of scope. CGCG 59.53 seems to me to conflate the two ideas of concentration/limitation for γε, but the Cambridge Greek Lexicon treats them separately i.e. CGL for γε says “The pcl. is used (A) w. intensive force (to emphasize or concentrate attention on the wd. to which it is attached), (B) w. limitative force (to restrict or deny the applicability of a wd. or statement) etc.” And I think I get the idea of γε concentrating attention (which is what I was trying to express by saying “to you at least” though perhaps “to you certainly” might have been better?) but I can’t get my head around what using γε to express “limitation” means. Why is “at least” or “at any rate” a limitative expression? i.e. What exactly is being “limited” when you use these expressions? Something’s not clicking in my brain…

You know the negative is not in the protasis, Mitch, since (1) it doesn’t follow the “if” and (2) it’s οὐ not μὴ. “Not even if I were to be, Cyrus, would I ever seem so to you.” English works in just the same way (“Not even if I was starving would I eat that burger” or “I wouldn’t eat that burger, not even if I was starving”), and it’s standard behavior in Greek (cf. Smyth 2381).

Just think of that scene in the Iliad where Zeus seduces Hera (his wife!) by saying he’s never desired a woman so: “not even when I fell in love with Ixion’s wife (οὐδʼ ὁπότʼ ἠρασάμην Ἰξιονίης ἀλόχοιο), not even when …” etc. etc., a tactlessly long catalogue of women he’s seduced, all introduced by “not even when” and finishing up with οὐδὲ σεῦ αὐτῆς | ὡς σέο νῦν ἔραμαι (Il.14.315-328).
There it’s “not even when” rather than “not even if,” but the syntax is the same.

And you were right the first time about δόξαιμι meaning seem not think.

Ah, great, thanks Michael. You’re point about the negative being οὐ not μὴ makes it clear now as I see that CGCG 56.10 says conditional clauses use μὴ not οὐ. I wasn’t aware of that before and will pay more attention to how οὐ and μὴ are used in different kinds of subordinate clauses.

And your example of “Not even if I were…” is terrific :smiley:

Sorry, I was paraphrasing not translating, putting “you" as subject to convey the sense with emphasis. I should have made that clear.

I prefer your paraphrase actually as it does make the emphasis very clear. It’s difficult sometimes to strike the right balance between literalness and freedom when translating from another language.

Here’s another “not even if”: Odysseus to Eurymachus (one of the suitors) before shooting him dead.

Εὐρύμαχ᾽odusseu/s), οὐδ᾽ru/max%27) εἴd%27) μοι/) πατρώϊα πάντ᾽ ἀποδοῖτε,
ὅσσαpodoi=te) [τε](Greek Word Study Tool νῦν ὔμμ᾽ ἐστὶ/mm%27) καὶsti%5C) εἴ ποθεν/) ἄλλ᾽ ἐπιθεῖτε/ll%27),
οὐδέpiqei=te) κενde/) ὣς [ἔτι](Greek Word Study Tool χεῖρας/ti) ἐμὰς λήξαιμιma%5Cs) φόνοιο
πρὶν πᾶσαν μνηστῆρας ὑπερβασίην [ἀποτῖσαι](Greek Word Study Tool.
(Od.22.61-64).

“Not even if you were to …, not even so would I …”

And another: τοῖς τεκοῦσι γὰρ
οὐδ᾽ εἰ πονεῖ τις, δεῖ πόνου μνήμην ἔχειν.
(Soph. Oed.Colon.508f.)
“For not even if one labors for one’s parents should one hold memory of the labor."