Stumbled on CLASSOC UoA on youtube which has 3 songs in ancient Greek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX_MSrE9WtE
The μὰ τὸν Δία/Mama Mia is particularly noteworthy because of how well well the syllables and stresses line up, at least in the chorus. Listening to this song even once, it would be hard to forget the Greek phrase.
I have been going thru the comments and there are quite a few who dismiss the pronunciation as “Erasmian”. It sounds to be to be clearly restored pronunciation so wonder if what they really mean as Not-modern-Greek.
I have no problem if it is in fact Erasmian - both Erasmian and restored more or less ensure that each grapheme has a distinct phoneme where as modern pronunciation has a very odd relation between what is spoken to what is written. However by hearing is not perfect so I’d be interested to hear what others think the pronunciation is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5fA6dTnyrE&index=10&list=PLQJ5lYJwjCyJuC8xocQtiDLnI2EOXOqqq
Erasmian versus restored is a set of minor differences. The main critique that I have of the above that vowel quantity is not respected. The ancients, in every case that I know of, set short vowels to single beats of music, and long vowels or diphthongs to double that.
Pronounce the vowels however you’d like. Do whatever you’d like with accent, especially in music. But get the quantities right.
EDIT:
Here is audio of μὰ τὸν Δία, first spoken with 4 beats, like they are singing it, and then spoken as 5 beats. Note that the vowel of τὸν is not prolonged, and that the added quantity comes from the consonants.
But which of the two is that song? My perception is that the song is clearly restored but I do not have confidence in my hearing.
But given ABBA did it with four beats and that it is to ABBA’s music they are singing what other choice do they have?
In the first example you have spoken it so fast that it sounds as if there is only 3 beats. (But that may be just my hearing).
But isn’t it precisely in music that vowel quantities tend not to be heeded and adhered to (especially in the hands of an incompetent writer)? I know this happens in Finnish, where vowel quantity is phonemic (e.g. tuli ‘fire’ : tuuli ‘wind’), but in music sung all kinds of things will occur. Though, to be fair, a lyricist worth his salt will make these inaccuracies as few as possible, as the listener will obviously hear those Dehnungs of short vowels as a little dysphonic.
This goes for Greek as well. I tried to track down the source with no success (and will try again later), but I definitely remember reading either an Alexandrian Grammarian or Musical theorist lamenting the fact that these new poets were disregarding the true vowel quantities in favour of the music, which would make the words, according to him, difficult to understand. I think it had something to do with Euripides at one point. Does this ring a bell for anyone else?
Also concerning the terminology “Erasmian” vs “Restored”, I think that most of the people complaining in that thread at (Modern) Greek native speakers, who seem to be protesting not about the specific kind of pronunciation being used, but at the fact that it’s not the Modern Greek one, and they’re lumping the alternatives under the label of “Erasmian”.
That was my impression - that Erasmian is for them a convenient label of abuse. It is also true that the number of posts from native Greek speakers who liked the pronunciation songs seems to outnumber those who don’t let along others.
But I still curious to as to have confirmed my impression that it is actually Restored.
I cannot get my head around why it seems to be so difficult for some people to understand that pronunciation changes over time. Only meeting and talking with elderly people should make one notice that they speak a little differently. Maybe not much, but when there are, say, 50 or even 100 generations, the differences will add up.
It’s actually exactly the same with Arabic. Many Muslims won’t believe that Muḥammad didn’t pronounce the way the Qurʾān is recited at the moment.
Hi, Daivid.
I would say that it is more Erasmian than Restored. No attempt is made to reproduce the pitches. φ is more like f than p. ητα is more like “late” than “bad.” In ποθῶν the omicron and omega appear to be conflated. The only way it appears more like Restored than Erasmian is that θ is more like t than th. In what other ways do you see it as like Restored?
As I said, in the chorus the syllables and stresses seem to line up very well (though not perfectly) with the original.
Mamma mia, here I go again.
μὰ τὸν Δία, ἄρχεται αὖθις.
My my, how can I resist you?
αἰαῖ πῶς μέν σου ἀπέχω?
Mamma mia, does it show again?
μὰ τὸν Δία, μάλιστα αὖθις.
My my, just how much I’ve missed you?
αἰαῖ, φαίνομαί σε ποθῶν?
I don’t see how you could do this with the more complicated Restored Attic.
The two things I look out for are θ (as you mention) and χ which in the song sounds to me like kh/k rather than ch. (I write kh/k as I have trouble differentiating those two sounds.)
I just listed to the original Mamma Mia song by ABBA, and then Dancing Queen, and realized for the first time that both songs are very conscious of vowel length. Or at least they never try to put diphthongs on the short beats. I don’t believe that native English lyricists usually take that much care. But it makes sense, since ABBA is Swedish. This could also be why the songs have such a unique sound.
Regardless, if Swedish ABBA respected English vowel length when composing, then the least we can do is respect vowel length when covering their songs in ancient Greek.
My favorite Swedish band is not actually ABBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F8PYeDrdIk
I was wrong to say they had no other choice. However, if it is something done only by especially gifted writers like ABBA, it is asking a lot from amateurs. And what are trying is harder than what ABBA did because they are constrained by the fact they are writing a translation. ABBA if they were having trouble getting words to fit the beat they could switch to a different meaning which the writer(s) from CLASSOC UoA couldn’t do.
In Croatia singers who did cover versions of English Language hits would writer Croatian lyrics that had little relation to the English lyrics. Perhaps it would have been easier for CLASSOC UoA if they had done that.
EDIT
they could switch to a different meaning got missed out when I first posted