Poems anyone?

Latin Learning Latin
21

Ahh, but what is his actual take on war? Therein lies the rub.

Presuming for a second that Horace shared your opinion of the historical figures mentioned (and I share your opinion to an extent), it does not mean he did not take war seriously. What I mean to say is, 99 incompetent or corrupt wars do not mean that the 100th will be something to laugh at or is not worth fighting. Let’s transfer this to something else. When was the last time Somalia had a really good leader? Does that mean that a Somalian cannot take politics seriously or that a good Somalian leader is impossible? How many people did Machiavelli have respect for in Christian Europe? Yet, he was serious about politics.


I am a bit of an elitist on this; Horace is not someone, he is Horace. As he says…“Odi profanum vulgus.”


Again, this is not evidence of Horace’s true opinion of war in and of itself. I poke fun of my attempts to play football, but I can still acknowledge the glory and virtue of Football and worship Drew Brees, the best quarterback in the NFL. (the Mannings may be from the N.O. but they don’t play for them :smiley: ).

You are right that simply because he praises bravery does not mean that he believes that war, or bravery for that matter, are really the cat’s meow. This is a poem, after all, and poems give voice to beauty/ideas that are not exactly the author’s. What I mean is that poems praise the praiseworthy or sometimes just what other people find to be praiseworthy. I could write a poem on the virtues of democracy but still know that philosopher kings are the best rulers.

22

Well, since I was working on it anyway I thought I’d post some short excerpts from Eclogue II. The entire eclogue is beautiful, but these two passages struck me in particular.

Context: the shepherd Corydon is in love with (guess who?) a handsome boy named Alexis. Spurred by
unrequited love, he comes over and over to brood in the shade of thick beech-trees. He addresses
Alexis, who is not there.

Huc ades, o formose puer, tibi lilia plenis 45
ecce ferunt Nymphae calathis; tibi candida Nais,
pallentis violas et summa papavera carpens,
narcissum et florem iungit bene olentis anethi;
tum casia atque aliis intexens suavibus herbis
mollia luteola pingit vaccinia caltha. 50
ipse ego cana legam tenera lanugine mala
castaneasque nuces, mea quas Amaryllis amabat;
addam cerea pruna—honos erit huic quoque pomo—
et vos, o lauri, carpam et te, proxime myrte,
sic positae quoniam suavis miscetis odores. 55

Aspice, aratra iugo referunt suspensa iuvenci
et sol crescentis decedens duplicat umbras.
me tamen urit amor; quis enim modus adsit amori?
a, Corydon, Corydon, quae te dementia cepit!
semiputata tibi frondosa vitis in ulmo. 70
quin tu aliquid saltem potius, quorum indiget usus,
viminibus mollique paras detexere iunco?
invenies alium, si te hic fastidit, Alexin.’

Rough translation (prose):

Come you hither, O beautiful boy, behold! Nymphs bear you lillies
in full baskets;

Fair Nais, plucking pale violets and highest poppies, also joins
the narcissus flower of sweet smelling anise;

Then she paints soft blackberries with yellow marigold, weaving
around with sweet mezereon and other soft herbs.

I myself pick grey fruit, tender with down and chestnuts which
my Amaryllis loved;

I’ll add on waxlike plumbs-this fruit too will be given a place of honor-
and I shall pluck you, nearby myrtle, and you, o laurels, since placed
thus you mix sweet scents.

Look here: oxen are carrying plows supported by their yokes and
the setting sun doubles growing shades.

But love still pains me; what heed would love have? Ah Corydon,
Corydon! What madness has seized you? You have a half-pruned
vine on a leafy elm tree. Why don’t you rather, at least, set about
plaiting it with twigs and rush, which need calls for? You’ll find
another Alexis, if this one spurns you.

Comments to follow…

23

First of all my translation of the last few lines up until “invenies…” may be a little off. Here’s an older translation from somebody else:

Nay but rather at least something of all that daily work needs, set thou to weave of osiers or soft rushes…

That’s from a really good if dated translation.

Anyway, what i love about the Latin is simply the beauty of the language. The botanical language even in my terrible Eng. rendering is dense but lovely, but the Latin is amazing. I already mentioned that chiastic line above: “mollia luteola pingit vaccinia caltha.”

I’ve always found material set in nature to be particularly challenging to read and translate, probably because my life is so far removed from nature and it’s so rich in symbolism that I’m just not familiar with. Anyway, I’ve set about reading and translating all the Eclogues, hoping that will ground me in Roman nature poetics.

24

Amice, you won’t have any problem there. Ovid displays more devices in one page than other poets manage in ten. :slight_smile:

Btw, for anyone interested in reading Ovid I recommend Charles Dunmore’s Selections From Ovid. It contains a good selection of passages from the Metamorphoses along with pieces from the Fasti, the Tristia, the Amores, and the Heroides. Includes a vocabulary and brief but helpful notes.

I’m enjoying this thread too. Sorry I can’t join in, my time is rather absorbed elsewhere right now. However, I have been reading a lot of Catullus lately, particularly the epithalamia.

25

Lovely passages. Interesting to note the Vergilian resonance in the famous Copa Syrisca:

Sunt et caseoli quos iuncea fiscina siccat.
Sunt autumnali cerea pruna die.
Castaneaeque nuces et suave rubentia mala,
Est hic munda Ceres, est Amor, est Bromius.

The Copa is sometimes attributed to Vergil.

26

I have the same problem. For me, it is also a vocab issue with the nature poems. I do not have time to think about it right now…kids are afoot, and if I plop down at the computer for longer than 20 minutes while the kids are up, my wife freaks. I sneak five minutes here and there.

Since I am not familiar with the Eclogues and you are working through them, why don’t you always post your Eclogues findings. Between you and thesaurus, I can really plug some holes in my Latin Lit.

Comment on Eclogues and new poem to come…

27

Kids are napping.

Come here, O beautiful boy. Look, the nymphs bring
lilies in full containers; to you does the shining water nymph, plucking the pale violets and the highest poppyseeds,
join well the narcissus and flower of odorous dill.
Then, weaving soft blueberries and yellow marigolds with
cinnamon and other sweet smelling herbs
I myself shall gather (pun on reading?) white fruit with the tender down and chestnuts. (what is it with that tender down?)
I will add the soft plums-for this fruit there will also be honor-
and you, o laurels, I will seize and you, the nearest myrtle, since placed here you mix the sweet odors.


Thoughts so far, talk of the hair on the cheek is a constant in homoerotic poetry. But here it is hairy fruit! :open_mouth:

Aspice, aratra iugo referunt suspensa iuvenci
et sol crescentis decedens duplicat umbras.
me tamen urit amor; quis enim modus adsit amori?
a, Corydon, Corydon, quae te dementia cepit!
semiputata tibi frondosa vitis in ulmo. 70


But look, young bulls (or young men) are carrying the plow
hanging from the yoke,and the sun descending doubles the growing shadows.
But love still burns me; what measure will there be for love?
AH! Corydon, Corydon, what madness has seized you?
Your leafy vine is but half-pruned in the elm tree.

As far as those last few lines go, I am taking your translation for now. They are a beast.

Likes: et sol crescentis decedens duplicat umbras.- wonderful line. Setting sun doubles the growing shadow
mollia luteola pingit vaccinia caltha- Golden, man, golden.

Question, do shepherds always sit around pitching woo at other shepherds? I guess it beats the sheep.

Why are there always singing shepherds? The stereotype of the singing shepherd is everywhere. Look at David in the Old Testament and Hesiod. What is it about herding sheep that leads to revelation? Is it the same reason aliens land in cornfields? :smiley:

But seriously, why do shepherds enjoy revelation? Don’t the angels sing in front of shepherds at the birth of Jesus? I had always assumed this was a Christian/Jewish idea in praise of the nomadic life which depends on God. But it is with the Greeks and Romans as well. Curious.

According to wikipedia, Corydon is a stock name for shepherds in pastorals. There is a Corydon Indiana. http://www.thisisindiana.org/ I wonder if farmers in Corydon pine for their fellow farmers, singing of downy fruit and dangling white plums?


Joking aside, this is a really nice poem. I was wondering if anyone can trace some of the herbal creations or confections being made here. What is with the twisting of cinnamon marigolds and blueberries?

28

I shall cheat a little a do one of my favorite Horace poems. It is II. XIV. I will post a translation first and a comment later.


XIV

Eheu fugaces, Postume, Postume,
labuntur anni nec pietas moram
rugis et instanti senectae
adferet indomitaeque morti,

non, si trecenis quotquot eunt dies, 5
amice, places inlacrimabilem
Plutona tauris, qui ter amplum
Geryonen Tityonque tristi

compescit unda, scilicet omnibus
quicumque terrae munere uescimur 10
enauiganda, siue reges
siue inopes erimus coloni.

Frustra cruento Marte carebimus
fractisque rauci fluctibus Hadriae,
frustra per autumnos nocentem 15
corporibus metuemus Austrum:

uisendus ater flumine languido
Cocytos errans et Danai genus
infame damnatusque longi
Sisyphus Aeolides laboris. 20

Linquenda tellus et domus et placens
uxor, neque harum quas colis arborum
te praeter inuisas cupressos
ulla breuem dominum sequetur;

absumet heres Caecuba dignior 25
seruata centum clauibus et mero
tinguet pauimentum superbo,
pontificum potiore cenis.



Alas, Postume, Postume,
the fleeting years slip by
and piety cannot bring delay to wrinkles
or approaching old age or unconquerable death.
not even with 300 bulls for however many days there are,
friend, can you appease the pitiless Pluto, who restrains the thrice ample Geryon andTityon
with the stream that certainly is to be navigated by everyone
who feeds on the gifts of the earth, whether they are kings
or poor farmers.

In vain do we flee from cruel Mars
and the crashing waves of the raucous Hadriatic
In vain do we fear the South Wind harming our bodies.

We must see it all, The black Cocytus
wandering in its sluggish flow
and the Infamous Danai clan and Sysiphus
damned to long toil.

The soil and the home and the pleasing wife are to be left behind,
nor will any of the trees you care for, except for the hated cypress,
follow their brief master:

And the heir, more worthy (for sure), will consume the Caecuban wine
which was guarded by a thousand keys.
And he will stain the pavement with the proud wine, a wine better than that used at the dinners of the priests.


Here is help for the discipuli. http://polyaplatinlit07-08.wikispaces.com/Horace+Odes+2.14

29

On to the comment.

I said earlier that Horace likes to play with the names of the people he is addressing his poem to. This poem is no different. The name Postume is related to the word Posthumous, which means after death. This is a poem about death and it is no accident that Horace names the addressee this. I think that Postume is a guy that has lived responsibly, saving up for treasures in the afterlife. I will give my arguments for this later.


The first line has some cool things in it. It starts off with one of my favorite latin words, eheu. Eheu is equivalent to Boohoo in English. It is onomatopoeia because it is imitating weeping. Anyway, notice how the “u” in Postume and fugaces have the same “oo” sound. Eheu,fugaces Postume Postume… I imagine someone crying in a corner.

Confession time. I took this “oo” stuff from an excellent Latin teacher in New York named Tom Virginia. He led the discussion of this poem at an NEH institute I attended. Thanks Tom.


On a very simple level, this poem is typical Horace. Live for the moment; drink it up; etc. However, if you dig deeper, it is much richer than it originally seems.

The poem is stocked with religious imagery and ideas, though it is not always obvious. The first thing that Horace says is that piety, the original religious idea, cannot stop death. Blasphemy, for piety is grounded in respect for Father, and, as Yahweh says, Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:“that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

Notice that the poem ends with the odd mention of a priest. Why? Well, the heir is drinking wine more powerful than priest wine. Priests ate well in ancient Rome, so Horace is just making a comparison right? Maybe not. If treatment of wine is a metaphor for the way one lives life, and it definitely is for Horace, then perhaps priestly “wine” is not simply “wine” but the priestly life and the ideas that support it.

What are these ideas? I believe the “priestly” message is this: give what is due to the gods, live moderately, cultivate piety. Postume has been doing this. Horace tells him, however, that piety and sacrifices are useless, for we all go to Hades. Postume has been cultivating his fields, the ONLY Roman occupation, and Horace tells him all of it will remain for his heir to eat through.

So, following this to its conclusion, Horace is trying to free Postume from his attachment to the priest ways and teach him the Horatian life.

Now what to do with all of these figures in Hades? Random? Maybe not. Sysiphus is in Hades for tricking the gods. The Danai slew their husbands on their wedding night. Tityos is in Hades for insulting Latona, the mother of Apollo and Artemis. I do not know what to do with Geryon. He is slain by Herakles. Anyway, most of these figures are in Hell because of impiety. Presumably, they are the priestly examples of life lived without piety. They are what Postume has been told not to be, the priestly wine.

Sadly, I do not know how successful Horace is in making Postume less afraid of death or more loving of life. I do not know about you, but comforting sad people by telling them their religious belief is a lie is a little silly. “Don’t worry about being a bad person and going to Hell, mate, God is not real.”

Anyway, here is the poem and my interpretation. The poem is amazing.

30

Man, you guys are making me want to take up Latin again…

I love this stuff, I just wish I had the time to give this thread the attention it deserves.

31

I haven’t been able to start translating poetry yet. The poems you guys have been posting is still a bit too advanced for me. I’ve taken a few cracks at them, but I end up pretty lost after the first couple lines. Are there any poets/poems that are easier to translate, so that I can ease myself into poetry not cannonball?

32

Actually, even though I’ve gone through Bender’s Horace for AP, I’m still in need of much review for the plump Epicurean. This is mostly because when I first read these poems I was far more concerned with ploughing through the lines than appreciating them as art. Now, if only someone who knew about the satirirsts would chime in, we’d be set…

Yeah, I can’t imagine that this one would be popular during the Christian era, maybe until the Renaissance.

Very interesting. Contrasts distinctly from the ode quoted above. To paraphrase: “I forbid any impious person to travel in the same boat with me. Jupiter often struck an innocent in pursuit of an unholy.” Perhaps, once again, it’s all a question of audience.

I suppose it depends on the disposition of the person. I didn’t question my religious beliefs at all until my mid-teens. Around that time, my grandfather started conversing with me about his agnostic leanings. He was the first person of many I would come across who feel more fettered by religion’s ideas about the afterlife than comforted. I personally never had trouble with the idea of some kind of atonement after death, but I did eventually find a much different religious grounding and rationale.

Absolutely. Like I said, I wish I had taken the time to think about this one when I first read it, rather than merely storming the walls of syntax.

33

These poems are fairly short, fairly easy, and absurdly famous.

Catullus 1, 2, 3, 5, 13, 51, 70, 72, 75, 85, 87, 109

Horace 1.5, 1.11, 1.13, 1.23, 3.9, 3.30

I will give you an assignment. Do Catullus 72. Post translation and comment. :smiley:

I will try to do more manageable poems. Martial, here we come.

34

I guess it depends upon how one defines impiety. Is it impious to simply not believe in the gods, or is impiety shouting out one’s lack of belief in the gods? It is one thing to know your dad is dumb and fat, it is quite another thing to tell him this to his face.

On a side note, Socrates always made sure to fulfill his earthly duties, except, perhaps, feeding his wife. Even when he dies, he tells someone to give a cock to Asclepius.

So you took Latin AP? How was it? I am under the impression that Latin instruction in High School is often more demanding than that offered in college. Of course, I am a Latin teacher, so I would say that.

35

If you find syntax too difficult, you might try, like I did when I started practicing with translation, doing short poems or excerpts and parsing every word, or at least every word that isn’t extremely obvious. This means writing out each word, in its dictionary form (Nom. & gen. for nouns, principal parts for verbs), its form in the text, then its function. It’s time-consuming, but it will help you think things out clearly and make sense out of complex material. Very soon, you won’t need to do it anymore, but you’ll still have that skill of precisely analyzing syntax. Don’t think you’ll get stuck doing it forever; it’s merely a crutch you’ll be able to toss away when you no longer need it.

I think there are some authors easier to read than others. Ovid, I found, was a good place to start for epic. Someone mentioned the Dunbar edition of Selections from Ovid above. This is a good place to start. If you work through it, you’ll have no trouble following long narratives written in dactylic hexameter. The same for Catullus and short poetry; the poems you come across in student readers designed for the AP, for example, are generally easier. I’ll list some good student readers that helped me below. “Easing yourself” is fine if you don’t have much free time, but without intensive effort you can only expect your progress to be slower.

The trick is, I think, to study one author intensively for a little while using a good student reader with extensive notes and introductions. I would recommend, in order of difficulty level:

Beginning Latin Poetry-A great compilation with short excerpts and extensive notes and other fantastic features for intermediate level readers.

Wheelock’s Latin Reader-My first reader.

Selections from Ovid

Writing Passion, A Catullus Reader

Pharr’s Aeneid, Books I-VI

36

No, I’ve never taken an AP Latin course. I did take AP Spanish in high school though, and did quite well on the exam (5). I’ve been out of high school for about three years and haven’t gone to college yet. I do Latin on my own, starting shortly after high school.

You teach Latin in high school? I imagine that would be pretty damn hard, seeing the difficulty my Spanish teachers had with most of their students.

37

I taught Latin in an excellent High School for the past few years. My students were all Honors only. This year, I switched to a Middle School (family/friends ties, money, etc.). I have started Latin in this Middle School, though I am only teaching Latin I and the students, except for a few, are not that good. I do not think that it takes an intelligent person to learn a language, but it does take someone who is willing to do homework. My top students are pretty good, but my failing ones are really bad, as in have not done homework all year and have a 31 in the class. Latin is mandatory at this school, and I do not think that parents are on board yet.

Anyway, I am impressed you have taught yourself this much Latin in just a few years. :smiley:

On to the next poem, what is next?

38

Superavi, this is for you…

Hopefully this is not confusing. Underlined = verb. Adjective and Noun pairs have italics or bold. If an adjective agrees with a noun from another line, I used the asterisk.
V

Quis multa gracilis te puer in rosa
perfusus liquidis urget odoribus (perfusus modifies boy)
grato, Pyrrha, sub antro?
cui flauam religas comam, (cui= dat. “to or for whom”)

simplex munditiis? Heu quotiens fidem 5
mutatosque deos flebit et aspera*
nigris aequora* uentis
emirabitur insolens,

qui nunc te* fruitur credulus aurea,
qui semper uacuam*, semper amabilem* 10
sperat, nescius aurae*
fallacis*. Miseri, quibus

intemptata nites. Me tabula sacer (tabula votiva sacer paries-interlocking word order)
uotiua paries indicat uuida* (with vestimenta)
suspendisse potenti*
uestimenta* maris deo*.

1-5 Vocab

antrum-cave or grotto
religas-religo-tie back
comam-hair

simplex munditiis- I have always liked to translate this “simple in your complexities”

6-16
miseri- I used to think this was an infinitive passive. I think misereri would be the inf. pass, though poets do what they want with verbs. (there was a conversation about this the other day). But then, I would have to explain the use of the infinitive, and I am not thinking of anything right now. It can also be nom pl. Regardless, it means the same thing. “They are pitiable (or they are pitied), whom you dazzle…”

suspendisse-perfect infinitive. Indirect Speech with indicat.

This link has so much more than I provide. http://polyaplatinlit07-08.wikispaces.com/Horace+Odes+1.5

39

translation and Comment on 1.5

Pyrrha, what slender boy is pressing against you now,
In the many flowers, steeped in odorous perfumes,
under the pleasing grotto?

For whom do you knot your blond hair, simple in your complexities?

Alas, how often will he bemoan faith and the changing gods,and, unaccustomed,
he will be overwhelmed at the seas fierce with dark winds!

He who now enjoys you, believing you to be golden-
who hopes you to be always lovable, who is always empty!-
is ignorant of the false breeze.

They are to be pitied whom you, untried, dazzle.

The sacred wall indicates, with its votive tablet, that I have suspended my wet clothes to the powerful god of the sea.



Comment:

The slutty Pyrrha is with a new “puer.” I think the question Horace asks is great. Who is it now, implying whoreishness and faithlessness.

Notice the word picture in line 1. Quis multa gracilis te puer in rosa. The boy and the flowers are literally surrounding Pyrrha. Again, this occurs in line 3 where the word Pyrrha is located in between “pleasing” and “cave.”

I think we can see the rationale behind Horace’s attraction to Pyrrha when he calls her simply elegant. This is a pretty good summation of Horaces’ philosophy.

In line 6 Horaces begins the very important sea image. The new puer will be overwhelmed by the seas stormy with black winds that is Pyrrha’s love. Horace picks up on this at the end when he mentions his votice tablet and Neptune. It was customary for sailors who survived a shipwreck to hang a votive picture and their clothes on the walls of the temple of Neptune. The meaning here…Horace has survived the storm that is Pyrrha. Horace adds to the image, though. He seems to be “hanging it up,” giving up on Pyrrha.

I have heard it argued that this poem is Horace indicating that he is giving up a certain form of poetry. However, this goes too far into meter and Classical poetry for me to keep up.

Anyway, one odd thing to note here is that Horace throws in that this puer and others like him will be dazzled by Pyrrha, who is untried. Does this mean they are only dazzled by Pyrrha until they “gain” her, or does it mean that Pyrrha will only be around until she “gains” them, or is Horace simply trying to brag about bagging her?

40

So I just attempted to translate Catullus 72. I say attempted because I butchered the entire thing horribly. It made absolutely no sense by the time I finished with it. But I asked for help, and you’ve taken the time out of your day to help me, so it is only fair for me to hold up my end of the bargain and display what I came up with.

I read through another translation afterward so I get the sense of it now. From the translation I produced (however poorly it may be) I was getting a sense of Catullus being pursued by a lover that he did not want. It seemed to me that he was trying to let her down so that he could get away.

Lesbia, at one time you were speaking to have known Catullus alone
But not to be willing to hold Jupiter in front of me
At that time I didn’t like you so much as an acquaintance
but your father __ likes appropriate son-in-laws
Now that I have known you: even if, how strong I burn
You are, however, cheaper and easier to me
What can it do? You say. Because such injury brings together
to love, but to not wish well at all

Dicebas quondam solum te nosse Catullum
Lesbia, nec prae me velle tenere Iovem.
dilexi tum te non tantum ut vulgus amicam,
sed pater ut gnatos diligit et generos.
nunc te cognovi: quare etsi impensius uror,
multo mi tamen es vilior et levior.
qui potis est? inquis. quod amantem iniuria talis
cogit amare magis, sed bene velle minus.


I will have to take a shot at 1.5 later tonight. I have class tonight, and should focus again on what I need to do for that. Thanks for taking the time to help!