Hi all
I’m struggling slightly with the second sentance of the Republic, beginning καλὴ.
κατέβην χθὲς εἰς Πειραιᾶ μετὰ Γλαύκωνος τοῦ Ἀρίστωνος προσευξόμενός τε τῇ θεῷ καὶ ἅμα τὴν ἑορτὴν βουλόμενος θεάσασθαι τίνα τρόπον ποιήσουσιν ἅτε νῦν πρῶτον ἄγοντες. καλὴ μὲν οὖν μοι καὶ ἡ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων πομπὴ ἔδοξεν εἶναι, οὐ μέντοι ἧττον ἐφαίνετο πρέπειν ἣν οἱ Θρᾷκες ἔπεμπον.
I wanted to (literally) render it as ‘fair indeed too did the procession of the residents seem to me, certainly no less did it appear distinguished (than the procession) which the Thracians conducted.’
So basically I was reading μὲν οὖν and μέντοι as two separate asseveratives and translating οὐ ἧττον as ‘no less’.
However, the Perseus translation has μέντοι as adversative and οὐ ἧττον becomes ‘no better’ rather than ‘no less’.
S2901c does give an explanation for the use of μὲν οὖν … μέντοι, which would then just leave me trying to understand how ‘no less’ has flipped to mean ‘no better’.
Mentally, I always read it with an omitted nominative antecedent to ἣν, making the subject of ἐφαίνετο the Thracian parade: “No less appropriate, however, did the one the Thracians sent appear.”
I think the subject of ἐφαίνετο is [ἡ πομπὴ] ἣν οἱ Θρᾷκες ἔπεμπον, not ἡ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων πομπὴ. Literally, the Thracians’ procession seemed to stand out [πρέπειν] no worse than that of the natives. But although the litotes οὐ μέντοι ἧττον is idiomatic Greek, in English “no worse/less bad” is awkward, so Shorey has turned the entire sentence around in translation.
Maybe "The procession of the Thracians seemed to shine [πρέπειν] just as brilliantly . . . "
μέντοι is adversative. See LSJ μέν B.II.4.a:
https://logeion.uchicago.edu/μέν
Cross-posted with Joel.
Thanks chaps. Before I’d read your responses (and whilst walking the dog) I had the thought that the οὐ ἧττον might be depending on or reaching back to καλὴ. ‘no less however did it appear conspicuously fair, (the one) which the Thracians conducted”.
πρέπειν is parallel to καλὴ εἶναι.
ἡ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων πομπὴ / ἔδοξεν / καλὴ εἶναι
[ἡ πομππὴ] ἣν οἱ Θρᾷκες ἔπεμπον / ἐφαίνετο / πρέπειν
πρέπειν alone means “to stand out,” “be conspicuous/outstanding.”
To stick closer to the Greek, the translator might have written “. . . but the show made by the Thracian contingent seemed no less outstanding.”
Thanks, this makes perfect sense now.
πρέπει to mean simply “conspicuous” would be fairly (completely?) unique in Plato, who uses the word frequently. It would make a lot of sense in Homer or Herodotus, of course.
Plato several times uses a variation of “δοκεῖ πρέπειν”, “appear appropriate”, and in the Republic uses it as a participle, “πρέπουσαι βάσεις” and so on, ie. a personal subject. I think you have to judge by context and your feel for Plato which is the better mental comparator to καλή, standing out, or to be especially fitting to the occasion of the ἑορτή.
Steadman’s text and commentary on Republic One is very helpful.