Pl. Ap. 34d

[NateD26]

This is a difficult section I had trouble with and thought to ask for your help.

εἰ δή τις ὑμῶν οὕτως ἔχει—οὐκ ἀξιῶ μὲν γὰρ ἔγωγε, εἰ δ᾽ οὖν—ἐπιεικῆ ἄν μοι δοκῶ πρὸς τοῦτον
λέγειν λέγων ὅτι “ἐμοί, ὦ ἄριστε, εἰσὶν μέν πού τινες καὶ οἰκεῖοι· καὶ γὰρ τοῦτο αὐτὸ τὸ τοῦ Ὁμήρου,
οὐδ᾽ ἐγὼ ‘ἀπὸ δρυὸς οὐδ᾽ ἀπὸ πέτρης’ πέφυκα ἀλλ᾽ ἐξ ἀνθρώπων, ὥστε καὶ οἰκεῖοί μοί εἰσι καὶ ὑεῖς γε,
ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, τρεῖς, εἷς μὲν μειράκιον ἤδη, δύο δὲ παιδία· ἀλλ᾽ ὅμως οὐδένα αὐτῶν δεῦρο
ἀναβιβασάμενος δεήσομαι ὑμῶν ἀποψηφίσασθαι.”

My main problem is with this line:
ἐπιεικῆ ἄν μοι δοκῶ πρὸς τοῦτον λέγειν λέγων ὅτι…

1. What is the function of ἄν here? Does it go with the infinitive λέγειν as potential optative
   under δοκῶ μοι?
2. Does ἐπιεικῆ then function as adverb to that infinitive – as translated by the 1966 English
   edition @Perseus – or some other function?
3. Should I read the participle λέγων as having a general conditional force – as read by '66 Eng
   version – or as suggesting manner, by saying that … I think I might be speaking fairly to him.?

Thanks,
Nate.

[pster]

Helm refers you to Smyth 1983. Gotta run. I’ll be back in 10 hours.

[NateD26]

@pster

Helm refers you to Smyth 1983. Gotta run. I’ll be back in 10 hours.

Smyth demonstrates in this section and the preceding ones the personal construction of δοκῶ μοι
vs. the impersonal δοκεῖ, but that wasn’t really what I asked. Thanks though.

[NateD26]

anyone want to give it a try? thanks.

[Markos]

Hi, Nate,

What is the function of ἄν here? Does it go with the infinitive λέγειν as potential optative
under δοκῶ μοι?

Yes, I think in direct discourse it would have been an optative as the apodosis of the protosis εἰ δ’ οῠν. ἄν…λέγειν is standing in for ἀν λέγοιμι. There is one instance in the Greek NT, I cannot remember where off hand, that αν occurs with the infinitive, and, if I remember correctly, I think I read that this is somewhat rare but by no means unattested, but that may have applied to Koine.

Does ἐπεικῆ then function as adverb to that infinitive – as translated by the 1966 English
edition @Perseus

It depends on how you want to look at. You can understand λέγω πολλά as “I say many things” (adjective) or “I speak often, I speak vigorously, I speak much,” (adverbs.) There is so much overlap between Greek adjectives and adverbs that I think the distinction should be drawn only when it radically affects meaning. For what it is worth, LSJ gives ἐπιεικῶς as the adverbially form. If you put a gun to my head, I would take this as a substantive “I would be speaking fitting things.” But it’s not worth killing over.

Should I read the participle λέγων as having a general conditional force – as read by '66 Eng
version – or as suggesting manner, by saying that … I think I might be speaking fairly to him.?

Again, this is a distinction we make in English, but it’s just not there in the Greek. I’ve been thinking more and more that all these issues boil down to how we see the Greek, from what position we approach it. The Greek is what it is a, a participle with the precise force, conditional or manner, left somewhat vague. We can look at it from different angles, but that is about us, not the Greek.

Again, put a gun to my head and I would say it’s a conditional participle, since the whole scenario is meant to be hypothetical.

ελπιζω οτι συ και ὁ οικος σου καλως εχουσιν. εγω καλως εχω. σημερον αναγιγνωσκω τον Λυσιαν. τί συ νυν ποιεις?

[NateD26]

@Markos

Yes, I think in direct discourse it would have been an optative as the apodosis of the protosis εἰ δ’ οῠν. ἄν…λέγειν is standing in for ἀν λέγοιμι. There is one instance in the Greek NT, I cannot remember where off hand, that αν occurs with the infinitive, and, if I remember correctly, I think I read that this is somewhat rare but by no means unattested, but that may have applied to Koine.

Thanks, Markos. It is more common in Attic than in Koine.

@Markos

It depends on how you want to look at. You can understand λέγω πολλά as “I say many things” (adjective) or “I speak often, I speak vigorously, I speak much,” (adverbs.) There is so much overlap between Greek adjectives and adverbs that I think the distinction should be drawn only when it radically affects meaning. For what it is worth, LSJ gives ἐπιεικῶς as the adverbially form. If you put a gun to my head, I would take this as a substantive “I would be speaking fitting things.” But it’s not worth killing over.

Indeed. Neuter plural though is often used as an adverb instead of the actual adverb, so perhaps
it’d be more fitting here.

@Markos

Again, this is a distinction we make in English, but it’s just not there in the Greek. I’ve been thinking more and more that all these issues boil down to how we see the Greek, from what position we approach it. The Greek is what it is a, a participle with the precise force, conditional or manner, left somewhat vague. We can look at it from different angles, but that is about us, not the Greek.

Again, put a gun to my head and I would say it’s a conditional participle, since the whole scenario is meant to be hypothetical.

I’m inclined to agree it makes more sense as having a conditional force in this context.

I’m doing well, Markos, thanks for asking. Not reading much these days but I’ll get back on the horse
soon enough.

[pster]

Have you figured everything out to your satisfaction Nate? If not, let me know. I finally have some to ponder ἄν and the Apology.

[NateD26]

I have, pster, but I’d love to hear your take on it.