Phaed 65b

Greek Learning Greek
1

Is this kind of anacoluthon or how to classify this irregularity after τοιαύτα and before και: ἆρα ἔχει ἀλήθειάν τινα ὄψις τε καὶ ἀκοὴ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ἢ τά γε τοιαῦτα καὶ οἱ ποιηταὶ ἡμῖν ἀεὶ θρυλοῦσιν, ὅτι οὔτ᾽ ἀκούομεν ἀκριβὲς οὐδὲν οὔτε ὁρῶμεν; καίτοι εἰ αὗται τῶν περὶ τὸ σῶμα αἰσθήσεων μὴ ἀκριβεῖς εἰσιν μηδὲ σαφεῖς, σχολῇ αἵ γε ἄλλαι· πᾶσαι γάρ που τούτων φαυλότεραί εἰσιν. ἢ σοὶ οὐ δοκοῦσιν;

2

ok i will translate it according to my understanding : do sight and hearing have any truth for men, or are they such and the poets are constantly droning that we neither hear nor see anything precisely… there is something missing after they are such in the greek text

3

Adverbial καί rather than conjunctive καί, I would think. “Even”

4

It seems to make sense: do sight and hearing have any truth for men, or -such things even the poets drone into our ears-, namely, that we neither hear nor see anything clearly. It is an anacoluthon.

5

Smyth 2875:

  1. After expressions of sameness and likeness καί has the force of as (Lat. ac). Thus, ““ὁ αὐτὸς ὑ_μῖν στόλος ἐστὶ καὶ ἡμῖν” your expedition is the same as ours” X. A. 2.2.10, ““οὐχ ὁμοίως καὶ πρίν” not the same as before” T. 7.28, ἴσα καὶ ἱκέται the same as suppliants 3. 14, ““ταὐτὰ καί” the same as” X. C. 1.3.18. This use is commoner in prose than poetry.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Smyth+grammar+2875&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007

LSJ καί A.III:

III. after words implying sameness or like ness, as, γνώμῃσι ἐχρέωντο ὁμοίῃσι κ. σύ they had the same opinion as you, Hdt.7.50, cf. 84; ἴσον or ἴσα κ. . . , S.OT611, E.El.994; ἐν ἴσῳ (sc. ἐστὶ）“ κ. εἰ . . ” Th.2.60, etc.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dkai%2F1

See also Denniston Greek Particles καί I(7).

6

So τα is subject τοιαύτα predicate: or they are such as the poets…

7

Yes.

8

Thanks

9

Please gimme your opinion on my two other recent posts from Phaed concerning ώσπερ and δύναται