participle of εἰμί

I’m struggling to get a good grasp of participles right now. I think I have a pretty good feel for many of their uses, but some still give me trouble. I am trying to understand/translate the following sentence and am having some difficulty.

πάντων χ?εμάτων μέτ?ων ?στὶν ἄνθ?ωπος, τῶν μὲν ὄντων ὡς ἔστιν, τῶν δ᾽ ο?κ ὄντων ὠς ο?κ ἔστιν.

i understand the first part as roughly meaning “a man is the measure of all things.” it is the second part that gives me trouble. i recognize the μέν…δέ construction as a comparison, and the second half essentially being something almost like the opposite of the first half. but i just can’t make out what exactly it means. any help would be appreciated.
thanks,
dave
ps - really enjoyed the discussion in the last post about understanding v. translating and translationese v. regular english.

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hi will, i don’t think it’s a partitive gen. a partitive gen expresses the whole of which something else is a part (as in your second e.g.). that’s not what the original quote does.

in that quote, i’m pretty sure that each genitive is a prolepsis of the subject of its ὡς clause; i don’t have a grammar on me but i know they pass into the genitive when brought forward from the subordinate into the principal clause. i.e. it means that man is the measure of ὡς τὰ ὄντα ἔστιν (how things which are, are), and of ὡς τὰ ο?κ ὄντα ο?κ ἔστιν (how things which aren’t, aren’t), and then τὰ ὄντα in each case is brought forward before ὡς and so flicks into the gen.

just to go a bit further into the original question, of getting a grasp of how participles work in this way, i think the specific answer is that in grk when an article is attached, it can express the agent or doer with a “time element”. you might or might not be able to bring that out in english, but i think it’s important to think about the grk directly.

to take a step back, nouns and verb forms can be formed from the same root, eg. π?αγ- which can relate to “doing” generally. i don’t have a grammar here but will try to show how it works generally:

if you want to express “someone doing”, you can build the root π?αγ- into:

(a) a noun by adding an agent suffix. here it’s -τω?, which gives π?αγ-τω?, and with assimilation of γ to the dental becomes π?άκτω?, or
(b) a verb by: (i) treating the root π?αγ- as a verb root, (ii) adding the participle suffix, and (iii) adding the article (although sometimes (iii) isn’t required in some common types of poetry, e.g. Homer and tragedy, where a participle without an article can act as a substantive).

(b)(i): treating π?αγ- as a verb root: since it ends in a guttural mute, -γ- will change into -σσ- or -ττ- (in Attic, -ττ-) for the present and imperfect tense. [another example of this is ανακ- becoming ἀνάσσω in Homeric grk.]

(b)(ii) adding the participle suffix to the verb root, the present participle will be π?άττ-ων, and the aorist ppl will be π?αγ-σας (the rule above about guttural mutes only applies to the present and imperfect tenses, not the aorist), and π?αγ-σας by assimilation becomes π?άξας.

(b)(iii) adding the article, you get ? π?άττων and ? π?άξας.

so, there are at least these 3 ways to express “someone doing” from the general root π?αγ-, i.e. π?άκτω?, ? π?άττ-ων and ? π?άξας.

now the difference between nouns and verbs as aristotle says in “On Interpretation” is that nouns express meaning “without time” (16a) whereas verbs express in addition time (16b), i.e.:

(a) (π?αγ- built into a verb form): ? π?άττ-ων can express that the subject is “doing” at the same time as the action of the main verb in the clause, and ? π?άξας can express that the subject “did” before the action of the main verb in the clause. (Sometimes this distinction breaks down in e.g. Homer, but at any rate the participle still expresses time), whereas

(b) (π?αγ- built into a noun form): π?άκτω? simply expresses the subject as a “someone who does”, without referring to time.

this might all sound like information overload, but i think it’s important to understand directly how grk works. taking your original example, the participle τὰ ὄντα means “things existing”, with the present tense expressing that they exist now (rather than “existed” or “will exist” &c). a good example of this is Iliad A.70:

ὃς εἴδη τά τ’ ?όντα τά τ’ ?σσόμενα π?ό τ’ ?όντα,

where the participle + article in red is present and refers to things now existing, whereas the participle + article in blue is in the future tense, and means things which will be. this is how the participle expresses the time element: if there was a noun formed from the root of this verb to express “someone/thing existing” (i can’t think of one, i’m not sure it exists), it wouldn’t express this time element (i.e. whether the subject of that noun is existing, or was, or will &c): the verb with it would have to express that.

[similarly, you get a difference of meaning if you want to express the action itself of the verb: if you:

(a) build the root π?αγ- into a noun form, adding the suffix -σις for this purpose, giving π?αγ-σις which is π?ᾶξις after assimilation of -γ-, this simply expresses a “doing” without reference to time, whereas if you

(b) build the same root into a verb, i.e. by article + infinitive, you get time aspect expressed in addition, depending on the tense of the infinitive.]

Interesting. I’ll look myself later, but if you’re able to find a reference quickly, that’d be helpful.

hi will, i just found something on it in smyth s2182(b).

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0007&query=head%3D%23576

OK Chad,

Let me ask a question here.

Firstly, though, let me say that I am learning a lot from your posts. It makes me wonder just when, if ever, I might call myself knowledgable with respect to Greek.

Anyway, I am interested in the original quote, since I am studying Protagaras and Plato’s response to him in the Theatetus.

I have looked over both your approach and that of annis, and I can’t see a bit of difference in meaning. So tell me if there is and what it is:


prolepsis:
ὡς τὰ ὄντα ἔστιν how things which are, are
ὡς τὰ ο?κ ὄντα ο?κ ἔστιν how things which aren’t, aren’t

partitive genitive:
τῶν ὄντων ὡς ἔστιν of those that are, how they are
τῶν ο?κ ὄντων ὠς ο?κ ἔστιν of those that are not, how they are not

I mean you did not really translate the efffect of prolepsis or the meaning in English after prolepsis takes place.

hi, i agree with how will translates it, but i disagree with his explanation of the underlying grk syntax, how it works.

if the genitives were partitive, that would mean syntactically that “measure” is a part of “things existing”, because the partitive gen expresses the whole of which something else is a part.

i was saying that “things existing” were in the gen because they were brought forward into the principal clause to depend on “measure”, and in that case they flick into the gen. (see the smyth ref above).

NB i used the same type of prolepsis construction in the 1st sentence of this post, bad english but normal grk :slight_smile:, cheers, chad.

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hi will, yes that’s exactly what’s happening i think, they’re brought forward into the syntax of the principal clause to depend directly on “measure” as i said above and as described in the smyth ref. the thucydides quote in that section works the same way don’t you think?

similarly, when the subject of a subordinate clause is brought forward in prolepsis to be the object of the principal verb, it flicks into the accusative, like “see the lilies, how they grow”, which is “see how the lilies grow” with “lilies” brought into the principal clause.

here, because the subordinate clause expresses not “how” but “of how” after the noun for “measure”, i.e. “measure of how things existing, are” &c, “things existing” is brought forward to depend on “measure” and so goes into the genitive. it’s another type of prolepsis, which is exactly what’s happening here i think, not a partitive gen, cheers, chad.

Oy. Philosophical Greek will kill me some day.

I can accept that provisionally :slight_smile: though it’s a bit harder for me to see in this case. Something bugs me about the taking this as prolepsis here, but I’m going to have to worry it some more before I decide how to to explain it (assuming the notion survives being worried at).

hi will, i was trying to think, if you were going to say this in grk without using prolepsis, how would you do it, i.e.

“A is the measure of how B is [C]” &c

thanks, chad. :slight_smile:

I am not anywhere in the league you quys are but I want to ask a question.
Many grammars categorize to no end.
Umteen categories of genitives, almost as many aorists etc.
It is interesting in as far as analyzing a sentence is concerned but often I don’t see the importance of it when it comes to knowing what the sentence means.
I suspect if neither of you had ever heard of those specific genitives, both of you would still understand the sentence. Am I right?
(I am not trying to pour cold water on your linguistic discussion.)

hi bert, i agree with that if the syntax is clear, there’s no need to say whether it’s e.g. a gen of subject or object &c, going through the lists set out for each case to determine which one it is.

but here it’s a question of syntax not grammar, i.e. if you take the genitives as in prolepsis they belong in sense to their subordinate clauses, whereas if you don’t they belong in sense to the principal clause, so here it makes a difference to the sense i think.

it’s the syntax questions like this which are tricky, not the basic grammar questions i think. e.g. i spent a while trying to work out why the 1st word of line 2 of sophocles’ OT was in the accusative:

ὦ τέκνα, Κάδμου τοῦ πάλαι νέα τ?οφή,
τίνας ποθ’ ἕδ?ας τάσδε μοι θοάζετε

how you take it affects the meaning, and the byzantines differed over this in the scholia, so it’s not clear.

Interesting conversation, guys. But, Chad, I’m having some difficulty with your prolepsis argument. Specifically, I don’t quite see the parallel you draw with the Thucydides quote in Smyth 2182b. Your argument seems to imply that an original subordinate clause like this ὡς τὰ ὄντα ἔστιν, was, to achieve prolepsis, transformed to τῶν ὄντων ὡς ἔστιν. But neither has the transformed (now genitive) subject passed into the principal clause nor has it become an object of the verb of the main clause. Smyth indicates that these are requirements of prolepsis.

Moreover, μέτ?ον followed by the genitive case is a very common construct. Why not, then, simply interpret the two ὡς clauses elliptically? That is, “man is the measure of all things: man is the measure of the things that are how they are, and man is the measure of things that are not, how they are not.” In this interpretation the genitive case is dictated simply by the common construction with μέτ?ον.

Where am I going wrong?

Cordially,

Paul

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Yes. There are a few basic senses for the cases, of which the extensive taxonomies of the grammars are just particular realizations. What Smyth calls the “genitive of connection” I consider a subspecies (by descent, at least) of the partitive.

I’m very ambivalent about this case terminology. It’s sometimes useful to have the name, so you can look up parallel examples in grammars, but it does seem to make things appear more involved than they often really are.

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hi paul, do you think the thucydides quote in 2182b is a type of prolepsis? if not, i’m not fussed over terminology so i won’t disagree with you; if so, i just think the original quote is parallel, and the thucyd quote comes from the prolepsis section in the grammar, cheers, chad.

Slowly on I am getting to understand your discussion. :exclamation:

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