Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 71-92

Greek Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
1

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Greek but have never tried reading Homer before are doubly welcome.

Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.

We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf
An introduction to Book 6 and a list of resources for deeper study are available in the group dropbox folder

I’ve also been making flashcards to go with Steadman’s text (vocab occurring >8 times in Books 6-8)Next week (Friday 5th July) we’ll be reading Book 6 Lines 93-118

2

This week’s text

71 ὣς εἰπὼν δμώεσσιν ἐκέκλετο, τοὶ δ ̓ ἐπίθοντο.
72 οἱ μὲν ἄρ ̓ ἐκτὸς ἄμαξαν ἐύτροχον ἡμιονείην
73 ὥπλεον, ἡμιόνους θ ̓ ὕπαγον ζεῦξάν θ ̓ ὑπ ̓ ἀπήνῃ·
74 κούρη δ ̓ ἐκ θαλάμοιο φέρεν ἐσθῆτα φαεινήν.
75 καὶ τὴν μὲν κατέθηκεν ἐϋξέστῳ ἐπ ̓ ἀπήνῃ,
76 μήτηρ δ ̓ ἐν κίστῃ ἐτίθει μενοεικέ ̓ ἐδωδὴν
77 παντοίην, ἐν δ ̓ ὄψα τίθει, ἐν δ ̓ οἶνον ἔχευεν
78 ἀσκῷ ἐν αἰγείῳ· κούρη δ ̓ ἐπεβήσετ ̓ ἀπήνης.
79 δῶκεν δὲ χρυσέῃ ἐν ληκύθῳ ὑγρὸν ἔλαιον,
80 ἧος χυτλώσαιτο σὺν ἀμφιπόλοισι γυναιξίν.
81 ἡ δ ̓ ἔλαβεν μάστιγα καὶ ἡνία σιγαλόεντα,
82 μάστιξεν δ ̓ ἐλάαν· καναχὴ δ ̓ ἦν ἡμιόνοιϊν.
83 αἱ δ ̓ ἄμοτον τανύοντο, φέρον δ ̓ ἐσθῆτα καὶ αὐτήν,
84 οὐκ οἴην, ἅμα τῇ γε καὶ ἀμφίπολοι κίον ἄλλαι.
85 αἱ δ ̓ ὅτε δὴ ποταμοῖο ῥόον περικαλλέ ̓ ἵκοντο,
86 ἔνθ ̓ ἦ τοι πλυνοὶ ἦσαν ἐπηετανοί, πολὺ δ ̓ ὕδωρ
87 καλὸν ὑπεκπρόρεεν μάλα περ ῥυπόωντα καθῆραι,
88 ἔνθ ̓ αἵ γ ̓ ἡμιόνους μὲν ὑπεκπροέλυσαν ἀπήνης.
89 καὶ τὰς μὲν σεῦαν ποταμὸν πάρα δινήεντα
90 τρώγειν ἄγρωστιν μελιηδέα· ταὶ δ ̓ ἀπ ̓ ἀπήνης
91 εἵματα χερσὶν ἕλοντο καὶ ἐσφόρεον μέλαν ὕδωρ,
92 στεῖβον δ ̓ ἐν βόθροισι θοῶς ἔριδα προφέρουσαι.

3

Would someone else mind starting us off this week?

4

Χαίρετε πάντες!

I just found this forum and thought I would give this passage a go. I haven’t done any Greek in a while, so I’d welcome any feedback.

I wasn’t sure quite what to make of σεῦαν at line 89, so I took it with ἄγρωστιν as something grammatically possible that made sense. EDIT: This must be from σεύω, I’m a bit rusty.

In line 74, is the second foot of φέρεν long?

Translation:
Speaking so, he ordered his servants, and they obeyed.
Then they readied the the well-wheeled mule-drawn wagon outside,
led mules under and also yoked them to the wagon.
And they set it (sc. the clothing) down in the well-polished wagon,
And [her] mother put in a chest every sort of food in abundance,
And she put in meats, and she poured wine into
into a goat’s hide wineskin; and the girl mounted the wagon.
And she (sc. her mother) gave [her] wet oil in a golden flask,
so that she might bathe herself with the serving women.
And she took the whip and shining reins,
and whipped [the mules] to drive them [forth]; and there was a rattling of the two mules.
And they ran eagerly, and bore the clothes and her,
not alone, indeed all the handmaidens went with her at the same time.
And when indeed they came to the beautiful stream of the river,
there, sure enough, were ever-flowing washing basins, and much beautiful water
flowed so as to clean [the] very dirty [clothes],
There indeed they freed the mules from under the wagon.
And these [went] by the whirling river
to eat their sweet grass. And from the wagon
they took the clothes in their hands and carried them into the black water,
and they washed them in the troughs swiftly to offer a challenge [to one another].

5

Line 74 φέρεν , second foot is long because ἐσθῆτα previously had a digamma at the beginning of the word, so φέρεν ϝεσθῆτα

6

Teenage girls turning laundry day into game day. Right, reading my own culture back into it. Or maybe things really haven’t changed all that much in the last 3,000 or so years.

7

Hi! Welcome to textkit, and to this reading group. Folk here are very helpful if you have any questions.

And thanks for posting a translation, I’ll post some thoughts below.

8

It’s a very serviceable literal translation, I think. Now maybe you could try turning it into a less literal translation to play with the text a bit? This group is only a few weeks old, but the focus so far has been on the Greek and on wider problems of interpretation, so I’d be very keen to get a bit more translation going on.

9

As I have said before I find this passage amusing and a parody of heroic action.

3.475-481 is a parallel passage describing the departure of Telemachus from Nestor’s palace to Sparta.

“παῖδες ἐμοί, ἄγε Τηλεμάχῳ καλλίτριχας ἵππους
ζεύξαθ᾿ ὑφ᾿ ἅρματ᾿ ἄγοντες, ἵνα πρήσσῃσιν ὁδοῖο.”
ὣς ἔφαθ᾿, οἱ δ᾿ ἄρα τοῦ μάλα μὲν κλύον ἠδ᾿ ἐπίθοντο,
καρπαλίμως δ᾿ ἔζευξαν ὑφ᾿ ἅρμασιν ὠκέας ἵππους.
ἐν δὲ γυνὴ ταμίη σῖτον καὶ οἶνον ἔθηκεν
480 ὄψα τε, οἷα ἔδουσι διοτρεφέες βασιλῆες.
ἂν δ᾿ ἄρα Τηλέμαχος περικαλλέα βήσετο δίφρον·

Its interesting to compare the food given here as being “fit to feed a King” (Wilson) with the “abundant/agreeable food of all kinds” “μενοεικέ’ ἐδωδὴν παντοίην” of 6.76-7. Wilson translates μενοεικής as “nutritious” and adds a Greek salad for good measure!

The part which made me smile was 81-4

"ἡ δ᾿ ἔλαβεν μάστιγα καὶ ἡνία σιγαλόεντα,
μάστιξεν δ᾿ ἐλάαν· καναχὴ δ᾿ ἦν ἡμιόνοιιν.
αἱ δ᾿ ἄμοτον τανύοντο, φέρον δ᾿ ἐσθῆτα καὶ αὐτήν,
οὐκ οἴην, ἅμα τῇ γε καὶ ἀμφίπολοι κίον ἄλλαι "

Nausicaa whips the mules while Telemachus whips the horses with “beautiful mane” (καλλίτριχας ἵππους 475) which of course are swift 478 (ὠκέας ἵππους). The mules clattering seems to me to add a note of bathos. I can see others will see a “realistic” touch here.

Priam orders a waggon to be prepared in Il. xxiv.265-80, although he travels in true heroic style in a chariot Il. xxiv.322-3.

Sean has made the point that he doesn’t find it funny and that "If this is parody then Homer is no Aristophanes. " I don’t much care for the idea of “authorial intentions” in fact I am not sure it makes much sense. I have no idea or interest in whether this is “intended” parody. I am giving my reaction to the text. Homer can’t be blamed for my act of reception.

It is interesting how the poem inscribes gender into the smallest details of these scenes. I think we passed over in the previous scene that Nausicaa finds her parents engaged in gender specific activities 52-55:

" ἡ μὲν ἐπ᾿ ἐσχάρῃ ἧστο σὺν ἀμφιπόλοισι γυναιξὶν
ἠλάκατα στρωφῶσ᾿ ἁλιπόρφυρα· τῷ δὲ θύραζε
ἐρχομένῳ ξύμβλητο μετὰ κλειτοὺς βασιλῆας
ἐς βουλήν, ἵνα μιν κάλεον Φαίηκες ἀγαυοί."

10

I’m hoping this is the week that someone explains to me what on earth I’m supposed to do with Homeric scholia.

I really liked the interplay between ὑπεκπρόρεεν (87) and ὑπεκπροέλυσαν (88) - two Homeric hapaxes in different positions in their verse mirroring each other across these two lines. I thought this would be a good opportunity to see if there were any scholia providing an interpretation of the multiple compounding going on in these verbs, or any more comment on ὑπεκπρορλέει at line 87 in my OCT, and found the following in Dindorf:

https://archive.org/details/scholiagrcainho01homegoog/page/n383

What am I supposed to do with the initials next to each scholion, and what does it mean when there are multiple initials? Presumably this relates to commentators or codices but I can’t find a list in Dindorf (I can’t read latin so maybe it’s in the introduction) - are multiple scholia being conflated? Apologies if this is extremely obvious, google did not avail me.

11

[quote=" “seanjonesbw”"]
This group is only a few weeks old, but the focus so far has been on the Greek and on wider problems of interpretation, so I’d be very keen to get a bit more translation going on.
[/quote]

I think its useful that people contribute translations as a means of trying to understand the Greek but a more efficient approach would be to ask questions about the Greek directly. Actual polished translations surely only come after we have discussed the possible interpretations. Its also a skill in its own right which I have never acquired even though it was required for exams. MWH, whom we all hold in high esteem, has often counselled in favour of reading greek without translating.

Thanks for your translation. I have a few comments.

In line 71 why did you translate “δμώεσσιν” (δμώς) as “servants” rather than slaves?

In 80 why “serving women”? Its interesting that Wilson omits “σὺν ἀμφιπόλοισι γυναιξίν” here.

In 84 why “handmaidens”? its the same word as 80 (ἀμφίπολος). Wilson translates “Slaves” here

I mention these lines because its easy to fall into using previous translations without thinking very much about what you actually think the text is saying. Maybe you wanted to ring the changes between 80/84 and that’s fine but ask yourself Homer doesn’t am I happy to diverge from the text. You can use the terminology of “handmaidens” if you want to inscribe your translation in a tradition but in my view you need to think about it to make sure its a conscious decision.

In 74 Sean observes you omitted “κούρη” ie Nausicaa. Was this is deference to Aristophanes who “was offended that a person of Nausicaa’s status should be represented as performing menial tasks” ( Heubeck et al. p. 298)

12

There are others here who can give you a more detailed explanation, but I’ll have a go:
The letters refer to the manuscripts the scholia appear in, categorised by the library they reside in, thus:
B,E = Mediolansis Bibliothecae Ambrosianae (Milan)
H= Harleianus Musei Britannici (British Museum)
P= Heidelbergensis Bibliothecae (olim Palatinae, nunc Academicae)(Heidelberg)
V= Vindobonensis (Vienna)

Unfortunately, Dindorf didn’t make a list of the sigla. You have to read through the Preface.

13

I think Wikipedia might be a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_scholarship it adds a bit of detail to the list given by Aetos.

More generally “Brill’s Companion to Ancient Greek Scholarship” might be helpful https://brill.com/view/title/22910?lang=en.

Others are more expert and will help.

14

What you say about asking questions being more efficient is definitely true - sometimes a ‘wooden’ translation reveals questions that the poster didn’t even know they had, so I do think they can be worthwhile.

Polished translations, like you say, are a different thing and should be left until you feel you’ve got to grips with the ambiguity in the Greek. I don’t bother translating unless I think it would be interesting to make something new in English, but I do think that making wooden translations can be a good way to ‘get into’ a writer. If they become a crutch and you never get round to reading the Greek without translating, that’s a different problem. I prefer reading alongside a fairly literal translation to do the same thing, but horses for courses.

15



Thanks both. I’m finding it difficult to tie together what I’m reading about manuscripts containing accretions of multiple commentators with Dindorf’s sigla. Does “B.E.H.P.” mean that the same scholion is attested in all of those manuscripts, potentially from the same original commentator, or merely that the same thought is expressed and Dindorf has rendered the common idea in his own Greek (i.e. is the Greek a quotation from the manuscripts or a summary?).

16

Seneca can probably give you a more definite answer, but I’m pretty sure that it works like a critical apparatus, and Dindorf is simply citing the manuscripts where the displayed scholion appears. This of course is important because it lends more authenticity and credibility to the wording of the scholion. I do not believe Dindorf is paraphrasing multiple scholia.
Randy Gibbons once recommended “Scribes & Scholars” by L.D. Reynolds. Chapter 6 gives you a great overview of textual criticism, which could answer some of your questions. I found a copy at my local library. Here’s the item on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Scribes-Scholars-Guide-Transmission-Literature/dp/0199686335

17

I am sure Aetos is right. The Greek given in Dindorf is what appears in the manuscript. Don’t forget that when the manuscripts were copied so too were the scholia.

I was having a quick look at H in the British library. I am not which of the Harleianus Musei Britannici manuscripys has this particular scholia but you could try looking on line here:

http://searcharchives.bl.uk/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=IAMS041-001613641&indx=5&recIds=IAMS041-001613641&recIdxs=4&elementId=4&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%28BL%29&tab=local&dstmp=1562080234630&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=odyssey&vid=IAMS_VU2

18

Seneca,
You probably know it already, but if not, you’re looking for H5674.
Here’s what I found:
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Harley_MS_5674&index=0

19

Here’s the beginning of Book 6 in the Harleian MS:
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_ms_5674_f002r
Here’s the page with lines 87-88:
http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_ms_5674_f037r
It begins 7 lines from the top. If you look to the right of this line, you will see the scholion.

20

There it is! On f.37r top right. I thought I was going to need to go on a 6 month course in papyrology for a second there. Like you say, Dindorf is quoting it word for word. Thanks for the help, and to Seneca.