Odyssey, Book 13

Greek Homeric Greek and Early Greek Poetry
1
    1. ὣς ἔφαθ᾽, οἱ δ᾽ ἔδεισαν, ἑτοιμάσσαντο δὲ ταύρους.
  1. ὣς οἱ μέν ῥ᾽ εὔχοντο Ποσειδάωνι ἄνακτι
  2. δήμου Φαιήκων ἡγήτορες ἠδὲ μέδοντες,
  3. ἑσταότες περὶ βωμόν. ὁ δ᾽ ἔγρετο δῖος Ὀδυσσεὺς
  4. εὕδων ἐν γαίῃ πατρωΐῃ, οὐδέ μιν ἔγνω,

But what happened with the good Phaenicians? Answer me!

Oh, this is so unfair, and I’m sure the poet knows that: note the
contrast at ὣς οἱ μέν…ὁ δ᾽, while the Phaenicians are in the middle
of their destruction, he is waking up as cool as a cucumber, and not
even recognize the island for which the Phaenicians have lost
everything! I’m very disappointed.
2. > 19. νῆάδ᾽ ἐπεσσεύοντο, φέρον δ᾽ εὐήνορα χαλκόν.

  1. καὶ τὰ μὲν εὖ κατέθηχ᾽ ἱερὸν μένος Ἀλκινόοιο,
  2. αὐτὸς ἰὼν διὰ νηὸς ὑπὸ ζυγά, > **μή τιν᾽ ἑταίρων
  3. βλάπτοι ἐλαυνόντων**> , ὁπότε σπερχοίατ᾽ ἐρετμοῖς.

Alcinous himself put under the rower benches the bronze that he had
given to Odysseus, but I don’t understand the meaning of the purpose
clause which explains the reason of his action.
3. > ἀκταὶ ἀπορρῶγες, λιμένος > ποτιπεπτηυῖαι> ,

ποτιπεπτηυῖαι → ποτιπεπτυῖαι (from πέπτωκα, as λελυκυῖα)?
4. > 96. Φόρκυνος δέ τίς ἐστι λιμήν, ἁλίοιο γέροντος,

  1. ἐν δήμῳ Ἰθάκης: δύο δὲ προβλῆτες ἐν αὐτῷ
  2. ἀκταὶ ἀπορρῶγες, λιμένος ποτιπεπτηυῖαι,

  3. αἵ τ᾽ ἀνέμων σκεπόωσι δυσαήων μέγα κῦμα

  4. ἔκτοθεν: ἔντοσθεν δέ τ᾽ ἄνευ δεσμοῖο μένουσι
  5. νῆες ἐΰσσελμοι, ὅτ᾽ ἂν ὅρμου μέτρον ἵκωνται.

According to Merry, ἀνέμων κῦμα = “the wave raised by the winds”. But
should not σκεπόωσι go with a genitive of separation + an accusative
of the thing kept off? Then, do you see any problem in reading αἵ τ᾽
ἀνέμων σκεπόωσι δυσαήων μέγα κῦμα as “which keep the waves safe
from the stormy winds”?
5. > 113. ἔνθ᾽ οἵ γ᾽ εἰσέλασαν, πρὶν εἰδότες: ἡ μὲν ἔπειτα

  1. ἠπείρῳ > ἐπέκελσεν> , ὅσον > τ᾽ > ἐπὶ ἥμισυ πάσης

Context: οἵ/ἡ = the Phaenicians/the ship that escort Odysseus.

a. I thought that the meaning of ἐπικέλλω was “to bring a ship to shore”,
but here is used with the ship as the subject. Would you say that νῆας
ἐπικέλσαι, at Od. 9.148, is causative? Otherwise, I would expect a
passive verb here.

b. How would you explain τε here? (This is not a general clause, so
I don’t see that the epic τε could explain it).
6. > 145. ἔρξον ὅπως ἐθέλεις καί τοι φίλον > ἔπλετο > θυμῷ

I would expect a present tense: “do whatever you want and what is
pleasing to your heart”.
7. > 161. ἔνθ᾽ ἔμεν᾽: ἡ δὲ μάλα σχεδὸν ἤλυθε ποντοπόρος νηῦς

  1. ῥίμφα διωκομένη: τῆς δὲ σχεδὸν ἦλθ᾽ ἐνοσίχθων,
  2. ὅς μιν λᾶαν ἔθηκε καὶ ἐρρίζωσεν ἔνερθε
  3. χειρὶ καταπρηνεῖ ἐλάσας: ὁ δὲ νόσφι > βεβήκει> .

What do you think about the use of the pluperfect here? Is it similar
to the pluperfect that we have commented in other thread?
(http://discourse.textkit.com/t/odyssey-book-10/12864/1)
8. > 168. ‘ὤ μοι, τίς δὴ νῆα θοὴν ἐπέδησ᾽ ἐνὶ πόντῳ

  1. οἴκαδ᾽ ἐλαυνομένην; καὶ δὴ > προὐφαίνετο > πᾶσα

Said by the Phaenicians after Poseidon broke their ship. I’ve
translated the imperfect + δὴ as “she [the ship] was visible just a
moment before”? If this is correct, then προὐφαίνετο should be
προφαίνετο, right? ὑφαίνω doesn’t seem to make sense here.
9. > 230. ἀλλὰ σάω μὲν ταῦτα, σάω δ᾽ ἐμέ: σοὶ γὰρ ἐγώ γε

σάω → σάου (from σαόω)?
10. > 236. τὸν δ᾽ αὖτε προσέειπε θεὰ γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη:

  1. ‘νήπιός εἰς, ὦ ξεῖν᾽, ἢ τηλόθεν εἰλήλουθας,
  2. εἰ δὴ τήνδε > τε > γαῖαν ἀνείρεαι. οὐδέ τι λίην
  3. οὕτω νώνυμός ἐστιν: ἴσασι δέ μιν μάλα πολλοί,

How would you explain τε? Again, this is not a general clause.
11. > 287. ὣς φάτο, μείδησεν δὲ θεὰ γλαυκῶπις Ἀθήνη,[187]

  1. χειρί τέ μιν κατέρεξε: δέμας δ᾽ > ἤϊκτο > γυναικὶ
  2. καλῇ τε μεγάλῃ τε καὶ ἀγλαὰ ἔργα ἰδυίῃ:
  3. καί μιν φωνήσασ᾽ ἔπεα πτερόεντα προσηύδα:

How would you explain the pluperfect?
12. > 307. κήδε᾽ ἀνασχέσθαι: σὺ δὲ τετλάμεναι > καὶ ἀνάγκῃ> ,

How would you translate καὶ ἀνάγκῃ?
13. > αἴ κεν ἐᾷ πρόφρων με Διὸς θυγάτηρ ἀγελείη

  1. αὐτόν τε ζώειν καί μοι φίλον υἱὸν > ἀέξῃ> .’

Should not be ἀέξειν? (Governed by ἐάω, as ζώειν).
14. > θείμεν αὐτίκα νῦν, ἵνα περ τάδε τοι σόα μίμνῃ:

σόα → σώα?
15. > 379. ἡ [=Penelope] δὲ σὸν αἰεὶ νόστον ὀδυρομένη κατὰ θυμὸν

  1. πάντας μέν ῥ᾽ ἔλπει καὶ ὑπίσχεται ἀνδρὶ ἑκάστῳ,

  2. ἀγγελίας προϊεῖσα> , νόος δέ οἱ ἄλλα μενοινᾷ.

How do you interpret ἀγγελίας προϊεῖσα here?
16. > σὺν σοί, > πότνα > θεά, ὅτε μοι πρόφρασσ᾽ ἐπαρήγοις.

πότνα → πότνια?

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What did you except? :stuck_out_tongue: At the end of book 8, Alkinoos tells how his old man used to say that one day, Poseidon is gonna be angry if they go on sending people home, “but hey, don’t let that bother us when we send Odysseus home!” Alkinoos had it coming! But as to what finally happened to them, we don’t know. Did Poseidon finally punish the city? We’re not told. And what does amphikalupsein mean? To put a mountain “over” the city (i.e. smash it and totally destroy it), or to “surround” the city with a mountain (i.e. isolate it)? But anyway, since no one has seen any Phaeacians since, I don’t suppose they ended up very well!

Odysseus, however, has his gifts now. Why shouldn’t he be happy!

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  1. βλάπτοι – get in the way, hinder

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dbla%2Fptw

  1. ποτιπεπτηυῖαι - LSJ explains this as from προσπτήσσω, “crouch towards”:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dprospth%2Fssw

However, they list πεπτηώς, ηυῖα as a perfect participle of πίπτω, citing Odyssey 14.354:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpi%2Fptw

There’s obviously some uncertainty here, and perhaps there was in the mind of the author, too.

Take your choice.

Update: Chantraine vol. 1, p.414 associates both this instance and Od. 14.354 with πτήσσω, “blotti.”

  1. “keep the waves safe from the stormy winds” I’m not sure this makes sense to me. Waves are raised by wind, not kept safe from them. The cliffs form a natural harbor that keeps the big waves out. I’ll go with Merry.

  2. ἐπέκελσεν – We’ll just have to accept this as it is: “the ship beached.”

ὅσον τ᾽ – can this be explained as a device to lengthen the previous syllable?

  1. πέλομαι – in the present tense, this verb means “come to be”. It’s used in the aorist to mean simply “to be.” See LSJ B.3:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dpe%2Flw

προυφαίνετο – from προ-εφαίνετο, with augment and contraction.

That’s all for now.

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  1. The point is that the gifts shouldn’t be on the way of the rowers when they row. (Although I thought Phaeacian ships didn’t need to be rowed, that they moved by itself, but well…)

  2. This τε is interesting. Before going to sleep in the evening, sometimes I read the Necronomicon by the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred, sometimes another fearsome book of 1100 pages called Autour du τε épique by C.J. Ruijgh (funny things you can find in a university library…). For Ruijgh, ὅσον τε here means “approximatively” (“environ” in French), and he compares the use with οἷός τε, which was was very common later. It’s many pages and I don’t have the time to read it right now, so I’ll report to you later it if there was anything interesting.

  3. I think it’s a “dramatic” pluperfect (I don’t know the correct term), similar to what we’ve encountered before. Something like “Then he was already gone”. I’m not sure everybody agrees on the meaning of these pluperfects, though.

5

I didn’t know that verb. Both verbs sound a little original with the headlands as the subject anyway. I wonder what would be the perfect of προσπτύσσω, I see now that it is very similar in form and I think it would be more natural that both headlands “embrace” the harbor.



Ok, it just sounded strange to me that he himself should have to do that, I thought I was missing something.

Sure, but who will tell that to Mr. Ruijgh?

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Paul is right.

LSJ ὅσος

  1. of size or distance, ὅσον τε about, nearly, ὅσον τ᾽ ὄργυιαν, ὅσον τε πυγούσιον, Od.9.325, 10.517 ; “ὅσον τ᾽ ἐπὶ ἥμισυ” 13.114, cf. Il.10.351 ; “ὅσον τε δέκα στάδια” Hdt.9.57; “ξύλα ὅσον τε διπήχεα” Id.2.96, cf.78 ; so “ὅσονπερ τρία στάδια” Id.9.51; in Att. ὅσον alone, “ὅσον δύο πλέθρα” Th.7.38 ; “ὅσον δύ᾽ ἢ τρία στάδια” Pl.Phdr.229c ; “ὅσον παρασάγγην” X.Cyr.3.3.28 ; so of other measurements, “ὅσον τριχοίνικον ἄρτον” Id.An.7.3.23.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Do(%2Fsos

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  1. The Oxford commentary and Ruijgh suggest that you are right, that τε has no place here and it is introduced by rhapsodes who did not truly understand the generalizing τε, for “euphony”. Apparently that means that they think it’s an interpolation?

  2. καὶ ἀνάγκῃ: the idea is something like “by compulsion, if not otherwise”, “you must, because you have no choice”. I don’t think English has exactly the same idiom, or at least I can’t find it. My mother language Finnish has something quite similar, though.

  3. The Oxford commentary notes the same oddity as you and calls it a “slight anacoluthon”. However, as the Oxford commentary notes, it should be ἀέξεσθαι, not ἀέξειν, because if φίλον υἱὸν is subject the verb must be mediopassive. With active ἀέξῃ, the subject is Διὸς θυγάτηρ ἀγελείη.

  4. ἀγγελίας προϊεῖσα “as she keeps sending messages”, “by sending messages”. According to this, Penelope sends messages to different suitors to keep their hopes alive. This makes her quite a deceptive sort of person, doesn’t it? Here it’s Athena who says this, so it’s not just the suitors who are accusing her. This doesn’t completely suit with the picture that only the suitors are guilty of the situation in Odysseus’ palace, I think.

8

Another nice example with καὶ ἀνάγκῃ, Od. 5.154-155:

ἀλλ’ ἦ τοι νύκτας μὲν ἰαύεσκεν καὶ ἀνάγκῃ
ἐν σπέεσι γλαφυροῖσι παρ’ οὐκ ἐθέλων ἐθελούσῃ

Poor Odysseus, who had to spend each night next to the lustful nymph, because there was no other place for him to sleep!

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This makes her quite a deceptive sort of person, doesn’t it?

Penelope is the only person in the Odyssey who manages to outwit Odysseus.

She sends the suitors messages keeping their hopes alive because they bring her gifts, which she is accumulating. (Although this doesn’t quite square with the fact that the suitors are eating up Odysseus’ estate.)

  1. The Oxford commentary and Ruijgh suggest that you are right, that τε has no place here and it is introduced by rhapsodes who did not truly understand the generalizing τε, for “euphony”. Apparently that means that they think it’s an interpolation?

τε (or some other short-vowel, open monosyllable) is metrically necessary here. I don’t see any reason for lengthening -δε in τήνδε before γαῖαν. At the same time, I don’t see how the whole line could be eliminated as an interpolation without getting rid of the entire passage.

10
  1. The Oxford commentary notes the same oddity as you and calls it a “slight anacoluthon”. However, as the Oxford commentary notes, it should be ἀέξεσθαι, not ἀέξειν, because if φίλον υἱὸν is subject the verb must be mediopassive. With active ἀέξῃ, the subject is Διὸς θυγάτηρ ἀγελείη.

I don’t see the problem here, except that τε has been somewhat displaced from ἐᾷ to αὐτόν. LSJ translates this as transitive: “rear him to a man’s estate.”

“May the daughter of Zeus allow me to live and [may she] cause my son to thrive.”

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)e%2Fcw

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  1. δέμας δ᾽ ἤϊκτο γυναικὶ

How would you explain the pluperfect?

ἔοικα is a perfect that functions as a present, “look like”, so the pluperfect functions as an imperfect.

  1. σὺν σοί, πότνα θεά, ὅτε μοι πρόφρασσ᾽ ἐπαρήγοις.

πότνα = πότνια.

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No, no problem here, I agree. Just a “slight anacoluthon”, but that’s not a problem. I really just wanted to point out that the active infinitive wouldn’t make sense, not to change the text…

But don’t you think Penelope is giving the wrong message to the suitors here? I mean when Odysseus kills them, they’re supposed to have had it coming…

And don’t you think he was also outwitted by himself, in the Cyclops episode, when he told Polyphemus his name? :slight_smile: That caused him a lot of trouble.

  1. The Oxford commentary and Ruijgh suggest that you are right, that τε has no place here and it is introduced by rhapsodes who did not truly understand the generalizing τε, for “euphony”. Apparently that means that they think it’s an interpolation?

τε (or some other short-vowel, open monosyllable) is metrically necessary here. I don’t see any reason for lengthening -δε in τήνδε before γαῖαν. At the same time, I don’t see how the whole line could be eliminated as an interpolation without getting rid of the entire passage.

I said that a bit carelessly. I didn’t mean that the line is interpolated, just that the τε is out of place, like Huilen said. The particle is not in line with the usual Homeric usage. Just removing the particle doesn’t help, because the meter doesn’t allow it (so the particle is not “interpolated”). There’s a variant γε, which Ruijgh suggests could be original, because -γεγ- in γε γαῖαν is supposed to sound ugly.

13

It would not surprise me that Penelope should be rendered like a deceptive woman. I remembered that today I read on beginning of chapter 15 the following said by Athena:

οἶσθα γὰρ οἷος θυμὸς ἐνὶ στήθεσσι γυναικός:
κείνου βούλεται οἶκον ὀφέλλειν ὅς κεν ὀπυίῃ,
παίδων δὲ προτέρων καὶ κουριδίοιο φίλοιο
οὐκέτι μέμνηται τεθνηκότος οὐδὲ μεταλλᾷ.

And recently, in the underworld, Agamemnon had talked bad of women in general (though I suppose that in his case we can’t judge him severely).

14

That speech is of course intended to get Telemachus home as soon as possible, but yes. Anyway, I think Penelope is described a bit contradictorily in different passages. Sometimes she takes gifts from the suitors, sometimes she just wants them to go away. It’s an old question whether this reflects the poet’s intention to make her psychologically interesting, or whether it’s just an accident or even due to interpolations.

Agamemnon wasn’t such a nice husband either, you know… :wink: Sacrificed his own daughter and all that.

I think there are many signs that the Odyssey was meant for a predominantly male audience. So many jokes for example that are clearly meant to be funny for men. Take for example how Kalypso is handled, the way she’s described as a desperate lover who doesn’t want to let Odysseus go, especially the conversation with Hermes.

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Agamemnon wasn’t such a nice husband either, you know… > :wink: > Sacrificed his own daughter and all that.

Yeah, well, no body is perfect!

I suppose that that kind of thoughts are quite natural for ancient literature, but in the case of Penelope (just because of an esthetic preference, not moral), if I had the power to choose (with the power of Aristarchus I mean :stuck_out_tongue:) I would like more to imagine her as the only one that outwits Odysseus, like Qimmik has suggested. Though I suppose that it is not necessary to drop the entire passage, one could just say that Athena was trying to hurry Telemachus, as you said.

I think Penelope is described a bit contradictorily in different passages.

That’s interestant, I will pay attention to her mentions from now on.