Negative clauses

Greek Learning Greek
1

καλῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις, ὁ Σιμμίας· καὶ ἐγώ τέ σοι ἐρῶ ὃ [85c] ἀπορῶ, καὶ αὖ ὅδε, ᾗ οὐκ ἀποδέχεται τὰ εἰρημένα. ἐμοὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἴσως ὥσπερ καὶ σοὶ τὸ μὲν σαφὲς εἰδέναι ἐν τῷ νῦν βίῳ ἢ ἀδύνατον εἶναι ἢ παγχάλεπόν τι, τὸ μέντοι αὖ τὰ λεγόμενα περὶ αὐτῶν μὴ οὐχὶ παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐλέγχειν καὶ μὴ προαφίστασθαι πρὶν ἂν πανταχῇ σκοπῶν ἀπείπῃ τις, πάνυ μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός· δεῖν γὰρ περὶ αὐτὰ ἕν γέ τι τούτων διαπράξασθαι, ἢ μαθεῖν
I understand why μη ουχί is used here but i do not get the meaning of the following μη προαφιστασθαι. According to the context it must be redundant

2

Not to test them in every way and not to cease beforehand until one is utterly exhausted is of a very effeminate character.

3

I’d venture to say that οὐχὶ applies to παντὶ τρόπῳ, while the two μὴ apply to the respective infinitives.

4

Still it makes no sense, coz the meaning is : not to test them and to cease before one is exhausted is of a weak character. This second μη is problematic…

5

I think I have got it: the first negative μη ουχί denies the whole of παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐλέγχειν καὶ μὴ προαφίστασθαι πρὶν ἂν πανταχῇ σκοπῶν ἀπείπῃ τις, therefore after the negative μὴ προαφίστασθαι becomes positive. This is the only possible explanation I guess. It took me an hour to crack.

6

I have found this section of the Phaedo to be tricky as well…for a long time. And asked the forum about it a few years ago.

The explanation you have arrived at, many also have arrived at.

However, I suspect that Smyth 2751 and the few paragraphs before have some relevance to the passage as well. “μη” is a pretty versatile word.

7

Here is the thread:

Grammar help in Phaedon please.

8

See also Smyth 2904b and an ex from D in 3021: a negative negates both parts of μεν…δε. he should have added it somewhere that it may also be with kai

9

I don’t think it’s a grammatical question about the negation of μεν/δε clauses. To me, “παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐλέγχειν καὶ μὴ προαφίστασθαι πρὶν ἂν πανταχῇ σκοπῶν ἀπείπῃ τις” seems like some sort of standard injunction, perhaps even a quotation. He’s applying the first μὴ [οὐχὶ] to the whole thing.