Hello all.
Cap xxix
11, I’m trying to understand the thinking behind the exercise.
I’m just looking up the perfect infinitive and the supine in a dictionary.
This can’t be right, surely?
Paul.
Have you done Pensum A? Some at least of the same information is needed there.
The exercise is asking you for the perfect active infinitive and the perfect passive infinitive. To answer these you need to have learned the principal parts of the verb. For example in the first question al-licere -iō -lēxisse -lectum (thats the order used by Ørberg when he introduces the verb on page 235 also he lists the perfect infinitive, normally grammars put first person present, present infinitive, first person perfect and supine -don’t worry about that term.). From these forms you can usually deduce all the other forms of the verbs.
Also this exercise is testing whether you know the spelling changes that can happen in the root of the verb as in alliciō.
Hope this puts you back on track. You shouldn’t really need to look in a dictionary as all the words in the exercise have been given in the text and when there is something “irregular” it will have been pointed out. "irregular isn’t really the right term as there is usually an easy explanation for any spelling changes.
This is awful.
Somewhere along the line I’ve missed something fundamental.
I am totally blind to any sort of patterns here.
I have looked at it from a million angles and I can’t see snything other than an exercise in lookup.
“Pattern blindness”?
I feel I can’t move on without resolving this.
Paul.
Dont despair!
Look at Chapter XXI where the perfect tense is introduced. The companion (p 183-185) gives an introduction to how the perfect tense is formed from the perfect stem, which is not the same as the present stem.
In particular look at the table on p 185:
Present Stem Perfect Stem
1st pulsā- pulsāv-
2nd iacē- iacu-
4th audī- audīv-
3rd dīc- dīx-
3rd scrīb- scrīps-
As the accompanying text explains “The varieties of the perfect stem may seem confusing at first, but the stem, in fact, can undergo a limited number of changes.”
This is further expanded in the next chapter, which introduces the supine. Look at the table of principal parts on p 199 and the explanations of the stem changes.
My advice is to learn the principal parts and read as many times as you like the explanation of the spelling changes. In time you will simply recognise the forms without worrying about explanations. As in everything if you go too quickly through unfamiliar things it just won’t stick. Give yourself time!
Thanks for that.
I’ll go back to that chapter and take a fresh look.
Paul.
OK. Have re-read that chapter and the companion. Let’s hope it sinks in.
I shall now go back to that exercise without a dictionary and see what happens…
Paul.
Paul
Good luck with it.
You could also look at exercises 10 and 14 in Chapter XXI and perhaps exercises 9 and 10 of Chapter XXII.
The disadvantage of learning on your own is that you dont have someone to ask you questions as you work through the material to test whether you have understood things. Somehow you have to develop a way of testing yourself.
As things get more difficult you have to read through the material many times. I think your experience shows the importance of constantly reviewing previous material. Reworking the exercises is a good way of doing this as well of course as reading through previous chapters of the text.
Oops. Bad start. Vowel change in the first example. Allicere = allexisse.
Oh dear.
Got to canere and my head exploded.
Will I really eventually get a feel for these stem changes?
I’m going to read chapters 21 and 22 (the latter for the supine) of the book and the companion several times.
On a positive note: I was pleasantly surprised by how well I understood chapter 21.
Paul.
There are usually patterns in the formation of stems, but in the beginning that may be very difficult to get through all this. If you want to better understand how things work, you should understand that:
- In Proto-Indo-European, words are formed from roots bearing the general meaning, with different affixes, and Latin inherited these forms
- A nasal infix may be in the infectum stem and not in the perfectum stem, the ‘n’ having some relation with the fact that the action is taking place now and thus disappears at the perfectum: linquere > līquisse
- Some perfectum stems are formed from the reduplication of the root: dare > dedisse, currere > cucurrisse, tundere > tutundisse, your canere > cecinisse and so on.
- Some of the perfectum stems are formed from the change of the root’s vowel: facere > fēcisse, agere > ēgisse, vidēre > vīdisse
- Most of the other perfectum stems are formed by suffixation, but there are different suffixation modes: adding a ‘s’ or a ‘v/u’ after the root, often with subsequent phonetic changes: lūdere > lūd-s-isse > lūsisse, fīgere > fīg-s-isse > fīxisse, amāre > amāvisse, monēre > monuisse
Also note that when a normally voiced consonant becomes voiceless, the preceeding vowel usually becomes long: agere > ag-tum > āctum, trahere (from traghere) > tragh-tum > trāctum
Same for the supine stem, but with other suffixation, generally by adding -tum (but also -sum, seemingly) after the root, with subsequent phonetic changes too: lūdere > lūd-tum > lūsum, vidēre > vid-tum > vīsum, mittere > mit-sum > missum
Some explanations are historically inaccurate, but reflect how things work without getting them too complicated. Once you’ll get used to these patterns, things will get much more previsible.
If you need some more clarifications with verbs, note that the final -re in the infinitive comes from an older -se but the ‘s’ became ‘r’ because it was between two vowels. Hence you have the primitive pattern amā-se / amā-v-is-se / amā-tum for amāre. And for some words it became obscure because of the environment: fer-se > ferre, es-se > esse, ed-se > ētse > ēsse, vel-se > velle.
Will I really eventually get a feel for these stem changes?
Of course you will.
Start off by learning the principal parts listed on p199 of the companion. Try to get in the habit of learning the principal parts when you come accross a new verb. Regular self testing is a good idea.
In time you will recognise the changes and patterns will emerge which will help you understand what is happening. I don’t think that trying to memorise those rules now is going to be much help in memorising the forms themselves. It will of course help you to see that what is happening isn’t necessarily arbitrary .
Can I gently suggest again the advice I have given before about not rushing things.