life after Wheelock

Latin Learning Latin
1

I’m a retired university professor who, after retiring several years ago, began studying Latin. Wheelock was recommended, and I went through it carefully, step by step, and then went through it again.

But I’ve had difficulty taking the next step. Wheelock has lots of good grammar, but not much reading of original texts. I’ve translated many of the appended texts (the Loci Antiqui and Loci Immutati) and I have a copy of Wheelock’s Latin Reader, which I can imagine would work well for a second or third year Latin class.

Since I’m studying entirely independently, however, I’ve found it difficult to check my translations in the way that a good college instructor my review and criticize them. I’ve tried looking at some of the English translations on the internet or in published sources, of course, but often these seem to me very distant from the original Latin — or is that just me?

So I guess I’m looking for an equivalent of a second or third year Latin reading course, but one I might take advantage of here in the privacy of my home.

2

Your diligence is most commendable! I always like to suggest this book:

‘Aeneas to Augustus’ by Mason Hammond, Anne Amory, HUP 1967.

It has pretty good commentaries and the selection of texts is just wonderful, much better than in Wheelock’s Reader, in my opinion.

3

Stoice salve. I’m an independent learner, too, with access to university online facilities (as you may still have). This is what works for me or, at least, I find it great fun and I believe I’m making progress. I enjoy this forum because it stretches me and encourages me to engage with people much more experienced in the subject and yet far younger. Apart from that and the typical books I buy in print, I make huge use of the Latin resources in EEBO (“Early English Books Online”). Can you access it through your University account? I impose some structure on my learning by trying to follow a 16th- & 17th-century schools and universities curriculum and the text books are all in EEBO. I also think the Latin Vulgate Bible (a printed edition) is a fantastic resource for language learning, because of the very tight English translations available to you, because of the rhetorical repetition, because of its linguistic “common” touch, because I sort of know many of the stories, because it’s voluminous, and because of its immense influence on Western culture for such a long period. I’m not saying this for religious reasons. You see, I’m not interested in Rome per se but in reading history backwards (my doctoral research long ago was 17th-century based, but without Latin), and in spoken Latin, – and I have found it (Jerome’s Vulgate) spectacularly useful at my learning level. I’m quite surprised, to tell you the truth. I suppose it doesn’t matter what I read, just so long as I do read and keep reading, although I’m not sure what damage is being done to me by not concentrating on Ciceronian prose style. Does anything in that recommend itself to you? Vale.

4

I would strongly advise you not to translate the Vulgate yet because of its vularisms, e.g. “quia” clauses replacing accusative with the infinitive in indirect statement. The best transition would be to study Clyde Pharr’s first six books of the Aeneid. It is the best commentary for intermediate level Latinists on a Latin literary work that I have ever seen. It even has an excellent grammar reference in the back, and all of the vocabulary for the first six books is defined on each page. The line-by-line commentary should address nearly any grammatical or syntactical difficulty you may come upon in the text. Furthermore, almost every college curriculum begins its 200-level courses with a study of the first six books of the Aeneid.Oh, and its “the greatest poem by the greatest poet.”

5

Thanks, Vir litterarum. That’s good advice for me, too. I’m going to look for Pharr right away (although I’ve been loving my Vulgate detour and its quia vulgarisms). I’m glad you put the question, Stoic.

6

I found a copy of Hammond and Amory on my cluttered bookshelves, and started working my way through it. I like it a lot, as it seems to provide enough help but not too much, as well as some interesting contextual information. So I’ll probably stick with this for a bit.

Thanks to you all.

7

What about the second part of Lingua Latina? Roma Aeterna?

8

After two years of learning from textbooks, it is best, in my opinion, to learn advanced syntax, grammar, and style from actual texts.

9

point taken. sorry. :blush:

10

Agree++

And I second the Pharr recommendation. Strongly. :slight_smile:

11

An excellent suggestion… for somebody who studies via the Direct Method. :slight_smile: For translation purposes, however, it just won’t work.

12

Magister Stoic,

I have trodden a similar path, through three grammars, and still felt like a beginner. I think what has helped me lately has been the intense memorization program I started a few months ago. I and my homeschool students go through a daily chant of all our noun and verb endings, as well as some common, necessary conjugations. We keep doing this long after we already “know” them, in order to reinforce what we have learned. There is nothing like being able to recite these from memory --forward, downward, and backward, in under 5 minutes – to make all Latin forms more familar. Here’s a three=page PDF I just put together for this purpose. I still need to add the subjunctive conjugations:

http://www.rustymason.com/edu/lang/latin/latin_chants_06dec07.pdf

For those students just now finishing their first Latin beginner’s book, (I use D’Ooge’s book for my class), I can recommend Greenough, D’Ooge, and Daniell, Second Year Latin, as well as D’Ooge’s Easy Latin for Sight Reading. The latter has short selections from Ritchie’s Fabulae Faciles, Lhomond’s Urbis Romae Viri Inlustres, and Gellius’ Noctes Atticae. Nice reading. For composition, I like D’Ooge’s, Latin Composition for Secondary Schools.

Valete,
Rusticus

13

You r link did not work. I tutor Latin, thought it might be worth a look…

14

Sorry, I forgot that I had changed the file name. Thanks for telling me. Try it now and let me know what you think.

Gratias,
Rusticus

15

Chris Stoico et Omnibus Salutem Dicit:

I’m a Latin-and-Greek-self-study-ex-college-teacher myself who hopefully can add a little to the discussion…

I think you’ve gotten some great suggestions here. I, for one, own a copy of Aeneas to Augustus and it’s an excellent, progressive reader from texts written by the editor to texts written by Romans. It contains copious notes and, for someone like myself, plenty of blank space on the pages for my own. :slight_smile:

I also sympathize with your statement about English translations being very distant from the original Latin. Older translations tend to be nightmarishly wordy and newer ones salt and pepper their work with many modern constructions. Finding the real Latin amongst the crowd can be more work than working through the translation word-by-word. Some translations, however, are a bit more relaxed or at least simple. Dover makes a great, inexpensive dual-language book called Florilegium Latinum edited by Moses Hadas and Thomas Suits. Like to Loeb series, the verso page is Latin, recto English. Another great book is Minkova’s and Tunberg’s Readings and Exercises in Latin Prose Composition. You read real unmolested selections from Latin authors (from the Classical to Renaissance periods) and then answer questions and create your own compositions using selected vocabularies. The nice thing about this book, however, is that an answer key is available which, though it rarely matches up to your own compositions word-for-word, does help keep you on the right track.

Also, and I don’t think this should be underestimated, many good secondary and college students love showing off their translation work on-line. Just this morning, I was checking my own understanding of Catullus XIII against a translation I found on-line in a high-schooler’s blog who had translated the poem line-by-line and allowed me to catch my own mistakes. Most secondary and undergraduate students are instructed to keep their translation work as simple as possible in order to better demonstrate their own comprehension. Hence their translations are not typically bogged down by superfluous words or phrases.

I saw Lingua Latina Roma Aeterna mentioned. I am a rabid supporter of the Lingua Latina series and method and do not think it should be so readily dismissed. Granted, there is no corresponding English or other translation available to check your understanding, but there are many comprehension exercises which can be checked against an answer key, once again, to help make sure your own constructions are on the right track. Plus, the LL method, when combined with working through a grammar like you have already done, yields the best results.

Also, sharing your translations in the forums here is an excellent way to get solid constructive criticism. I cannot stress enough the kindness and Latinitas of many of the people here who have even helped a real bonehead like myself progress in the language. :smiley:

Valete,
Chris

16

I had composed a full reply earlier, but somehow it never made it through. Alas, instead of repeating myself fully, leaving off the rhetoric, essentially Pharr’s Vergil is good, though not great. It would need to be supplemented by a real commentary like Austin. Alas, Vergil defies so many “rules” of Latin, mixing styles as he pleases, that I do not heartily recommend him for absolute beginners. Catullus and Caesar to me are preferable, as well as Cicero’s letters, and perhaps some minor authors falling in-between. Celsus isn’t difficult at all, neither really is Livy. Vergil certainly is one day worth reading, but I must disagree that he is first choice for just completion of Wheelock’s. (Not to say that many of you didn’t do Vergil after doing so, myself included.)

17

After Wheelock…well I took intermediate Greek at Notre Dame. We started out with the Historia Apollonii Regis Tyri, which is easy Latin from the 5th Century or so. We then started reading small sections from amor et amicitia by Patrician Bell. Then we read various sections of Sidwell’s Reading Medieval Latin. Finally we spent enormous amounts of time on Catullus, using The Student’s Catullus by Garrison (3rd ed.). All in all I think that was a good course and prepared me well. I am not sure I would have done all of that on my own, without guidance though. I would however, recommend those who have finished Wheelock to get a copy of Historia Apollonii and try it out.

Currently I am reading Cyprian’s letters (for serious study) and also Winnie Ille Pu (for fun). The latter provides me with faster, relaxed reading and gives me confidence boosters when I have spent too much time on a passage in Cyprian, which I read much slower. I read Latin at least several hours a day. After I finish Winnie Ille Pu I will probably read the HArry Potter series in Latin. And then move to Cyprian’s treatises or Augustine’s confessions. but I digress, that is not second year material (Winnie ille Pu would be useful for folks though).

18

Reading Chris’s comment above led me to investigate Latina Lingua a bit. Has anyone else had any experience with this set of texts? Why has it been dismissed (as Chris suggets)?

It looks like it would provide a set of readings of graduated difficulty — something missing in Wheelock. Might be the kind of thing I need.

Bob

19

Salve Stoic. Here are some of my suggestions.

I agree with whoever said that the Orberg series should be on your list. Excerpts of the Orberg titles may be read at the link given below. I already have the Roma Eterna. Soon I will get Cena Trimalchionis and Amphitro.

http://www.vivariumnovum.it/Latino.htm

Moreover, wherever you turn next in your studies you may wish to consider the Adler lessons as a helpful and nearly painless way to review and cement your knowledge, especially if you have a mind someday, as I do, to attend some of those seminars where latin alone is used as the language of discourse. Finally, a very fun place to sharpen the mind is at Grex Latine Loquentium, the online forum established for exchanges of letters and articles - exclusively in latin. Some of the world’s best latinists are participants. With several years of study to your credit and with the aid of dictionary, you should be able to understand just about everything. As I read online, whether at the grex or elsewhere, I keep a copy of Whitaker’s Words open. It really saves a lot trips to the paper dictionary.

Best to all.

20

I think that Whitaker’s Words is a dangerous tool for beginners especially. It parses the words. Personally I think that for the first two years it should only be used in an extreme circumstance, if at all. If it is used I think downloading a copy and turning off the parsing, only using the definitions section is best.