i started with the KJV of “God is a Spirit:” and i want to know what the ancient Manuscripts actually Wrote. The THGNT includes a comma in the source text? “πνεῦμα ὁ θεός**,**” What in the world?
i realize It actually Starts with Breath/Spirit (The?) GOD …or that’s what they are claiming It says.
i tried going here …but i need your help:
https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/Group/GA_05?filter=1&OSIS=John.4.24
It should be the last Verse at the previous link.
i have no idea what i’m looking at when the Greek Words are all together like that.
There are other examples at that site if you don’t like that one.
Showing how much i know …but umm, when there are columns like that …do you read down the columns or go from column to column per row of Text?
Second to last Verse here:
https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/Group/GA_01?filter=1&OSIS=John.4.24
you can zoom with the top left plus button
Welcome.
The words go left to right, and top to bottom, just as in English or in your THGNT.
What you’re looking for is on the third to the last line (of your first link). Notice that ΘΕΟΣ is written as ΘΣ with a line over it. One of the “nomina sacra”.
Hi! i can not find ΘΣ …so you are saying It Says “GOD” …but what does It Say right before It?
[This is replying to the first version of your post.] In the second link, look at the 9th line from the last. There both πνεῦμα and θεός are abbreviated. What I see is ΠΝΑΟΘΣ, where Σ is written as a very tiny lunate sigma (a tiny letter “c”) and nomina sacra lines above ΠΝ and ΘΣ. πνεῦμα ὁ θεός.
Can you give me your guess as to what It should be Interpreted as? That Middle Word is driving me crazy: πνεῦμα ὁ θεός
It’s either “God is spirit” or “God is a spirit”, depending on whether you think the evangelist is making a statement about God’s substance or his taxonomy.
ὁ θεός means “God”. It takes the article, “ὁ”, because that’s how they usually say it in Biblical Greek. In other periods of the language, they often just said θεός.
Oh, that’s why, okay, thank you. Can i annoy you with something else? i want to know if the same Verse uses the same Word for SPIRIT in both places?
In Greek, words are transformed depending what they do in a sentence. It’s the same word, πνεῦμα, but it has been transformed into πνεύματι following ἐν.
Your links write this πνεύματι as ΠΝΙ with the line above. One of the nomina sacra again.
So it was Transformed for the second use in the Verse? And because It was Transformed It Tells us that Its use changed …or just how It is used in a Sentence? Curious that It is Sacred for the second use also. Should i not find It odd that SPIRIT and GOD are right next to each other without anything between them?
Can you point out the start of the Verse here in this link? i think this is the oldest one available:
https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/Group/GA_P75?OSIS=John.4.24
The 16th line up. It has lines over ΠΝΑ and ΘΣ as before.
In English I say, “water is wet and in water we become wet.” In Greek, “ὑγρὸν τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ ἐν ὕδατι ὑγραζόμεθα”. ὕδωρ is water when it’s the subject of a sentence and ὕδατι is water when it comes after the word ἐν (meaning “in”).
It’s not odd. In Greek the word “is” will drop out in certain kinds of sentences. 400 years before Christ, Isocrates quotes the proverb: “κοινὴ ἡ τύχη καὶ τὸ μέλλον ἀόρατον”. Chance is everyone’s lot, and the future is unseen.
Thank you. So you think the second use is something like Praying in The SPIRIT?
[1 Corinthians 14:15 KJV] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
i have this idea that John 4:24 was broken off from The Verse before it. It’s just too weird to start a Sentence with πνεῦμα ὁ θεός i’m looking at the last Word of Verse 23, αυτον “Him” …and wondering if It could be used another way like “The Same”, “His Own”, or “Thereof”.
4:23(ABP) But comes the hour, and now is, when the true ones doing obeisance shall do obeisance to the father in spirit and truth; for also the father [2 such 1 seeks] to do obeisance to him. 24 God is spirit, and the ones doing obeisance to him [3 in 4 spirit 5 and 6 truth 1 must 2 do obeisance].
To something like this?:
But comes the hour, and now is, when the true ones doing obeisance shall do obeisance to the father in spirit and truth; for also
The FATHER such seeks to have Obeisance to The Same SPIRIT Of GOD and the ones doing Obeisance to Him in SPIRIT and TRUTH Bind Obeisance.
So It is basically Saying, Hey, stop doing Temple Sacrifices and Worship My SON instead.
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός isn’t weird at all, it’s simple, typical Greek. Joel quotes a similar exaple from Isocrates, which more literally could be translated ”chance is common and the future is unseen”.
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός ”God is (a) spirit”
θεός τὸ πνεῦμα ”(the) spirit is (a) God.
While in English word order determines which word is subject and which one is predicate (the subject comes first), in a sentence like this in Greek we recognize the predicate because it’s the word with the article (ὁ/τὸ).
To interpret it the way you do would like to read it would require us to connect the Greek words in a way that’s impossible. While very occasionally things like that might happen (ambiguities concerning which words belong to which sentence), it’s certainly not the case here. Generally speaking the Greek New Testament is a text that has been studied by countless people, so if there was something so obviously wrong with our interpration of the text as you suggest, someone would have noticed it a long time ago.
Does Scripture Start a Sentence anywhere else describing something and then right after Say “And”? i don’t think so, there is obviously something off here.
Joel has tried to explain this to you patiently and so have I, although perhaps not so patiently. You look at what you call ”Scripture” (for me it’s just an old text) as if it were a puzzle that can be forced to mean anything you want by assembling the pieces correctly. But this is really a pretty easy and straightforward passage of Greek, there isn’t anything unclear or ambiguous about it. Since you don’t know Greek, you’ll just have to take our word for it; beyond that, there’s really not much point in the discussion.