Isocrates, Nicocles or the Cyprians, Isoc. 3.42: pronoun problems

Greek Learning Greek
1

[42] οὐ τὴν αὐτὴν δὲ γνώμην ἔσχον οὐδὲ περὶ τῆς παιδοποιίας τοῖς πλείστοις τῶν βασιλέων, οὐδ᾽ ᾠήθην δεῖν τοῖς [?] μὲν ἐκ ταπεινοτέρας ποιήσασθαι τῶν παίδων τοὺς [?] δ᾽ ἐκ σεμνοτέρας. . . .

From Isoc. 3.42

Trial translation: I did not have the same conviction regarding the making of children as the majority of kings; I thought I should not make children with women of humbler origins, but (instead) with women of noble background. . . .

I’m unsure about the translation, and especially about the two pronouns marked like this “[?]”. Why is one dative plural, and the other accusative plural?

Did I understand the negation (οὐδ᾽ ᾠήθην δεῖν) correctly in the trial translation?

2

I don’t understand the text as you give it. Is it really τοῖς, not τοὺς? That would be “some … others.”

ουδέ is “not even”, or in context “or about child-making either.”

3

Hello Michael, the word τοῖς was part of my problem as well.

Here is the whole section 3.42, as I copy it from Perseus.

[42] οὐ τὴν αὐτὴν δὲ γνώμην ἔσχον οὐδὲ περὶ τῆς παιδοποιίας τοῖς πλείστοις τῶν βασιλέων, οὐδ᾽ ᾠήθην δεῖν τοῖς μὲν ἐκ ταπεινοτέρας ποιήσασθαι τῶν παίδων τοὺς δ᾽ ἐκ σεμνοτέρας, οὐδὲ τοὺς μὲν νόθους αὐτῶν τοὺς δὲ γνησίους καταλιπεῖν, ἀλλὰ πάντας ἔχειν τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν καὶ πρὸς πατρὸς καὶ πρὸς μητρὸς ἀνενεγκεῖν, τῶν μὲν θνητῶν εἰς Εὐαγόραν τὸν πατέρα, τῶν δ᾽ ἡμιθέων εἰς Αἰακίδας, τῶν δὲ θεῶν εἰς Δία, καὶ μηδένα τῶν ἐξ ἐμοῦ γενομένων ἀποστερηθῆναι ταύτης τῆς εὐγενείας.

And I append the preceding section 3.41, in case there is something I should have got from context.

[41] εἶτα λανθάνουσιν ἔνδον ἐν τοῖς βασιλείοις στάσεις καὶ διαφορὰς αὑτοῖς ἐγκαταλείποντες. καίτοι χρὴ τοὺς ὀρθῶς βασιλεύοντας μὴ μόνον τὰς πόλεις ἐν ὁμονοία πειρᾶσθαι διάγειν, ὧν ἂν ἄρχωσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ τοὺς οἴκους τοὺς ἰδίους καὶ τοὺς τόπους ἐν οἷς ἂν κατοικῶσιν: ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα σωφροσύνης ἔργα καὶ δικαιοσύνης ἐστίν.

4

I think it must be a mistake, Hugh. τοῖς μὲν makes no sense. The dative can’t be carried over from τοῖς πλείστοις τῶν βασιλέων in the previous sentence, the intervening οὐδ᾽ ᾠήθην δεῖν doesn’t permit that. So I would read τοὺς μὲν, in parallel with the subsequent τοὺς δὲ. Then it’s all straightforward. “I didn’t think one should have some (τοὺς μὲν) of one’s children from a lowlier woman and others from a superior one.”

5

Many thanks for that reply, mwh. I’ll carry on using your judgment.

6

The editions I have found, for example Loeb, have τούς and not τοῖς.

7

Issue reported

8

Thanks to bedwere for this, to mwh for his analysis, and to polemistes for his report. So, some good came from my puzzlement thanks to the work of bedwere, mwh, and polemistes!

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