Introducing circa1762

Salvete, All,

Thank you for receiving me at Textkit. I hold an administrative position at UCLA and am working on a doctorate there in the English Department (with a focus on Middle Welsh and Middle English texts), though I’m not currently enrolled. I have small Latin and less Greek, but love studying both and look forward to improving.

Unluckily, no one in my family or schooling stressed the merits of studying Latin or Greek, and I took Spanish courses instead. My first study of Latin came as I made the decision to apply to graduate school in medieval and early modern English. I already knew that a knowledge of Latin would be critical to that pursuit, but I didn’t realize that I would choose that pursuit until shortly before I applied, ha. I don’t regret studying Spanish, but given a time machine I’d replace it with Latin and Greek.

I spent the summer before my first term at graduate school going through Wheelock and made it up to the chapters where extended readings from Caesar begin. I had found learning the forms easy and fun, but Caesar defeated me with syntax. Also my grad classes started, which soon squeezed out much of my time for Latin studies. That was almost 17 years ago. I tried again about three years later with Jones and Sidwell’s Reading Latin, which one of my professors recommended. The first half of the book rooted its reading exercises in Plautus (Aulularia for Section 1, Bacchides Section 2 and Amphitryon Section 3), which I enjoyed. The second half shifted its emphasis to Cicero (In Verrem for Section 4), but I didn’t make it that far before abandoning Latin studies again in favor of whatever grad-school or teaching responsibilities pressed on me at the time. I also participated in a grad-student Latin group around that time, but we only made it through a few chapters of Wheelock before disbanding.

My next Latin foray happened maybe five years later, and that time I used Moreland and Fleischer’s Latin: An Intensive Course. Believe I made it about 2/3 through the book before lapsing again. Around that same time, I made my first effort at Greek, planning to work with a friend (who’d already studied a decent amount of Greek) on going first through Wilding’s Greek for Beginners and then Pharr’s Homeric Greek. In the event, we made it through a few chapters of Wilding, but soon scrapped our plan.

Then about three years ago came yet another Latin attempt. Rather than pick up another beginner’s textbook, I wanted to read an actual Latin text, one of my own choosing, and commit it to memory. After cruising the “Latin Per Diem” YouTube channel, I settled on Virgil’s first Eclogue and ordered the Loeb edition. I found the YouTube channel great for plunging me into the poem quickly – grammar, metrics, context – and then I’d spend time consulting the grammar from my Moreland and Fleischer volume for each word, though as time went on I found myself using Wiktionary instead. I was taking a sick friend’s dog on daily walks during that time, and Wiktionary proved the more practical grammar for those. I’d alternate between reciting and memorizing the lines of the Eclogue and doing the same with paradigms for the various words and etymologies (since I have a strong interest in Indo-European studies, though little experience). I made it a little over halfway committing the eclogue to memory – right up to the second “Fortunate senex” – before once again giving over my studies.

Since that time I finally dropped out of my graduate program – though I still plan to finish one of these decades if I’m so fortunate – and took a full-time administrative position at UCLA in the office where I’d already worked part-time for many years (having exhausted my teaching allotment and sought other income on campus). With my time somewhat my own now outside of work hours, and with my career track no longer aimed at academia, I feel little pressure to rush my dissertation anymore and hope to gain now, at last, the grounding in Latin and Greek that I’ve only grasped at in short bursts the last two decades (almost). Over the last month or two, I picked up the first Eclogue again, this time starting from the end and working my way back, and am finally able to recite the whole piece. This time, I didn’t place as much emphasis on absorbing the grammar, as I feel I finally have enough of that to muddle through and just look up things here and there as needed.

I’m also working to memorize pieces of medieval Christian liturgy, mainly Psalms, since that bears on my dissertation (certainly to a greater degree than Virgil at any rate). I plan to keep working through the Eclogues, though not memorize them all, and on through the Georgics and Aeneid before turning to Ovid and Horace. I’ll also use the Latin Per Diem site to take detours into other Latin (and Greek) writers for fun. I’ve just starting going through some of the Greek videos on Latin Per Diem over the last week, committing the first two lines of the Iliad to memory. I’ve also started on Pharr’s Homeric Greek again, so far just reading through the introductory materials and refreshing myself on pronunciation and metrics. I hope to read through the entire Iliad and Odyssey, then move to Hesiod and Pindar, then on to the Athenian dramatists and Plato. That should keep me occupied for the next ten years or so, ha.

So there we are – almost seventeen years trying to get myself some semblance of a Classical education, yet still a novice. Not the most exciting odyssey, but it’s mine. I hope the next seventeen years of study will prove more consistent. I’m thrilled at the prospect, anyhow, and love engaging with the material.

Welcome to Texktit!

Croeso i’r fforwm! I’d be interested to know which Welsh texts you’re working on for your doctorate.

And welcome! Actually, I thoroughly enjoyed reading that, and you are proof that there is certainly more than one path. When you say “recite” does that mean you memorized the entire poem (because that would of course be awesome)? If I may make one suggestion, remember that when you are reading Vergil or Caesar or Cicero you are reading masters of the language writing in the highest registers. You might want to practice first with texts designed to bridge the gap between your beginning grammars and the Latin composed by first tier authors. Their are several versions of Ritchie’s Fabulae Faciles which are very helpful for this, or Ørberg’s Roma Aeterna. Relatively easy ancient texts would include Eutropius, the Vulgate, and the Ilias Latina. The advantage is that you can read fairly large amounts in reasonably short periods of time, which enables you better to internalize syntax and structure. Then try going back to Vergil, Caesar, et al., and see if it makes a difference. Most people that I know who have followed this course feel that it does.

And once you start on these authors, there are “reader” editions designed specifically for the intermediate user that can get you up and running and help you read more than if you are just working through it with a standard lexicon and grammar, such as Geoffrey Steadman’s materials (both Latin and Greek), and others which are fairly easy to find with your handy dandy Google search. These usually include lower frequency vocabulary and helpful notes on the same page as the text you are reading. A major advantage of these is that they help you read larger amounts of text with less struggle in understanding, which means that your ability in the language is able to improve more rapidly.

Loeb’s are good, but only after you have attained a fair amount of competency with the language.

Diolch yn fawr! I’m biting off much more than I can chew, because I’m trying to work on the White Book of Rhydderch as a whole. Too many texts for someone whose Middle Welsh remains mediocre after years of work on it! My current focus, though, is on the three White Book texts connected by their colophons to brother and sister Gruffydd and Efa (ap/ferch Maredudd) – the pseudo-Turpin version of the Charlemagne legend (featuring the Saracen giant Ferracut), Marwolaeth Meir (in which all the Apostles are whisked away from business at hand to help Mary die comfortably) and a version of the Athanasian Creed in which it’s very difficult to disentangle the actual words of the Creed from the Augustinian commentary unless you already know it well, interesting (to me) chiefly because I find the opening address by translator Bola to recipient/honoree Efa to be a fascinating little drama. The ultimate goal is to relate texts like those back to the Mabinogion texts in the White Book, and try to make some sense of why all these disparate texts ended up in manuscript together (if there’s any sense to be made).

Do you read a good amount of Middle Welsh? Any favorites? I love the Mabinogion stories of course, but am largely ignorant of Middle Welsh poetry and look forward to fixing that eventually. There’s a bit in the White Book (because what isn’t in the White Book?), but I haven’t studied it yet.

Thank you, Barry! I appreciate your recommendations, and the care you took with them, very much. I was utterly unfamiliar with all the ‘bridge’ texts you mention, and they do sound excellent for my situation. I will track those down. Would be nice to mix in faster-digesting texts with my slow progress through the Eclogues, and no doubt good for improving my comprehension as you mention, not to mention my confidence.

I did memorize the whole first eclogue, yes, though I haven’t yet reached the point where I can fly through the entire poem without pausing to search my memory, especially in the second half of it. It was hard won, but such a thrill waking up, gradually, to some of the beauty and complexity of the poem. Of course that process continues the more I recite it. One oddity of the experience is that I feel so comfortable and confident in the syntax and lexicon of that particular poem now, but so much of that vanishes as soon as I cross the threshold of any other Latin poem (though of course the exercise has helped me a great deal – it’s just that the contrast in my comfort level from that poem to any other is humorous to me now).

Thanks again for your kind suggestions, which I plan to take up right away.

I think you’ll really enjoy the poetry when you get to it, Dafydd ap Gwilym especially. Welsh poetry at its best is the finest aural poetry in the world to my (not unbiased) ear, even if it translates extremely poorly. Don’t let anyone tell you that you have to understand all the rules of cywydd and the cynghanedd before you start reading it - just start shouting it out loud in your bedroom, the special effects are obvious to anyone with ears.

Rachel Bromwich’s workmanlike (a complement) facing-page translations of DaG in the Welsh Classics series would be very helpful and her Aspects of the Poetry of Dafydd ap Gwilym is fantastic. Pick up her Trioedd at some point too which might be relevant to your thesis. Also good is Gwyneth Lewis and (former Archbishop of Canterbury) Rowan Williams’s recent The Book of Taliesin: Poems of Warfare and Praise in an Enchanted Britain - some really great translations and the frequency of callbacks to Taliesin in later Welsh poetry, especially the gogynfeirdd, means knowing Taliesin pays off.

As you’re into Latin, you might find Paul Russel’s Reading Ovid in Medieval Wales interesting - I was surprised to learn that the oldest manuscript of the Ars Amatoria is Welsh. I don’t have any prose recommendations for you above what you’re already working on, other than the Brutiau if you haven’t read them. I’ve never studied Welsh formally beyond school so I haven’t had a reason to look into the fruitier short stuff except in snippets in other books.

It’s not a view shared by all my compatriots, but Welsh scholarship has been blessed by a handful of non-Welsh scholars like Rachel Bromwich who have sometimes taken our own literature more seriously than we do (see also Proinsias Mac Cana, who you’ll have come across). Thank you for joining in the fine tradition - in comparison with poetry, and with the obvious exception of the Mabinogion, Welsh prose seems to have been quite sadly neglected in scholarship so pob lwc with it. Your topic sounds very interesting.

Speaking of neglected Welsh epics: https://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/FullDisplay.aspx?ref=Harley_MS_952

I read some Lloyd Alexander to my daughter the other month, and had some trouble teaching myself how to pronounce the names correctly. Fear of murdering the names has always stopped me from reading any of the Mabinogion to them. And there wasn’t a good audiobook version the last time I looked (some years ago).

Ταφιηϊάδεω Κάμβροιο! Charming! What a bizarre thing - did you read about it somewhere?

I was going to link you to a Welsh pronunciation guide but they’re all absolutely terrible so I’ll write you one.

I came across it when I was first learning Greek, back in 2015, and teaching myself to read Greek cursive from British Library manuscripts. I made an earlier Textkit thread about this back then.

I would be surprised if anyone has ever written anything about it. However, I do notice the provenance line in the catalogue description now. “Reverend Mr Wickins rector of Stoke Edith.”

That just so happens to be Sir Isaac Newton’s roommate of 20 years at Cambridge, whom he lent money to, and is sometimes discussed as Newton’s possible homosexual lover on the basis of no real evidence. I suppose that this is Wickins’ scrapbook. Unfortunately the Astronomia at the beginning doesn’t bear any resemblance to Isaac Newton’s handwriting, as far as I can tell. I can’t read the Latin. And I don’t see much of biographical value flipping through the poem just now. People’s mileage may vary on the excitement of something like: ὥς ὅτε κάπρια ὕς βρισλειὸς ἐΰστε μέγας τε Ρύββειν βυττωκῆας ἐέλδεται ἤματα πάντα…

Blimey, bracing. κάπριος? http://discourse.textkit.com/t/odyssey-reading-group-book-6-lines-93-118/16813/1 I can’t find it in the manuscript but I wonder if its one of those squiggly ος ligatures.

I imagine the author tried to hellenise some of the English words. I’m guessing it’s the “wrath of Dafydd the Cambrian”. I’m at a loss for Φληάς, but considering it’s a parody, I’d guess “The Flead” or “The Flyad”.

I think it’s supposed to be ‘Welshman son of Taffy’ (this is not a flattering mock epic as far as I can see). I kind of want to read the whole thing but I fear my βυττωκῆας will be clenched throughout.

Well, it predates the nursery rhyme by centuries, but I’m afraid that Sean is right. It seems to be along the same lines as Holdsworth’s Muscipula sive Cambro-muo-machia. I hope he did not find it offensive that I brought it up – I thought it was silly.

Wikipedia mentions a Χοιροχωρογραφία, sive Hoglandiæ descriptio, published as a riposte to Holdsworth.

And yes, likely a squiggly -ος ligature, rather than the squiggly α ligature I took it for. I was going to update the post, but you had already replied.

Given the patronymic, I suspect the author wasn’t a Welshman. I thought I’d convert the name to the more acceptable form.
P.S. Here’s a link to a table of ligatures:
http://bibletranslation.ws/down/ligatures.pdf

No, I’m actually delighted you brought it to my attention, Joel - it’s all grist to my mill (which is not short of grist, even in these tough times).

I don’t think I have ever in my life been filled with as much righteous fury as when I first read this famous piece published in The Times in 1866:

“The Welsh language is the curse of Wales. Its prevalence, and the ignorance of English have excluded, and even now exclude the Welsh people from the civilisation of their English neighbours. An Eisteddfod is one of the most mischievous and selfish pieces of sentimentalism which could possibly be perpetrated. It is simply a foolish interference with the natural progress of civilisation and prosperity. If it is desirable that the Welsh should talk English, it is monstrous folly to encourage them in a loving fondness for their old language. Not only the energy and power, but the intelligence and music of Europe have come mainly from Teutonic sources, and this glorification of everything Celtic, if it were not pedantry, would be sheer ignorance. The sooner all Welsh specialities disappear from the face of the earth the better”

Petrol on my soul - ironically that paragraph has done more for the cause of the Welsh language than thousands of pages of pro-Welsh agonising since. The more things like this I collect, the more powerful I become.

Yes, that’s the one! Looks like an @ sign. I’m always perplexed by ligatures that seem to take up more space than the original letters.