Being a new Latin student (and not a Roman Catholic) I found myself attending a Beethoven Mass in C at the local parsih Church this past Sunday. Among the Latin included in the handout was this bit of scripture:
Dignus est Agnus qui occisus est, accípere virtutem, et divinitatem et sapientiam, et fortitudinen, et honorem. Ipsi gloria et imperiun in saecula saeculorum. (Ps. 71: 1)
This all seemed straight forward until I hit “in saecula saeculorum”, which was translated as “forever and ever.”
I was not sure what the literal meaning was…but guessed from the forms saecula and saeculorum that is a second declension neuter noun.
Saeculorum is obviously a genative plural, am I correct in thinking “in saecula” makes “saecula” the object of the preposition “in”, therefore, accusitive plural?
Anyway, that’s as far as I got in Church. Today, checking dictionaries I’m finding definitions like: “ages”, “generations”, “long periods”, etc.
So I guess I’m trying to understand the logic of the construction.
The “time” in the definitions I’ve seen does not seem “infinite”…but does “for (or is it through?) ages of ages” figuratively imply eternity?
And is there a better literal translation?
Thanks for any help. My Latin skills are very newly acquired and are still quite weak.
This all seemed straight forward until I hit “in saecula saeculorum”, which was translated as “forever and ever.”
I was not sure what the literal meaning was…but guessed from the forms saecula and saeculorum that is a second declension neuter noun.
Saeculorum is obviously a genative plural, am I correct in thinking “in saecula” makes “saecula” the object of the preposition “in”, therefore, accusitive plural?
Yes, you are correct.
Anyway, that’s as far as I got in Church. Today, checking dictionaries I’m finding definitions like: “ages”, “generations”, “long periods”, etc.
So I guess I’m trying to understand the logic of the construction.
The “time” in the definitions I’ve seen does not seem “infinite”…but does “for (or is it through?) ages of ages” figuratively imply eternity?
Insofar as a century can be considered a number (100), a hundred centuries is 10000 years, and hundreds of centuries even more. So obviously, an eternity is meant.
Thanks for any help. My Latin skills are very newly acquired and are still quite weak.
I think this phrase originates in fact from Hebrew or another Eastern language. This was a way to express a superlative (“the most…, the biggest…”)
n Flavius Iosephus, a Jewish writer writing in Greek, the Persian emperor is called “King of Kings”, like the Lamb (Jesus) in Revelation 17:13 (“King of Kings and Lord of Lords”). “King of Kings” was also the King of Ethiopia. Obviously, it means something like “the mightiest king”. You find also in the Bible vanitas vanitatum “vanity of vanities”, meaning “absolute vanity”.
Oh yes, the Bible: liber librorum, some would say . . . I have seen these genitives characterized as ‘elative’ somewhere. Not sure what that means, though.
I actually love Lingua Latina, and do my best to read a little from it every day. It keeps up my spirit for learning, and will hopefully make it possible to actually “read” Latin one day.
I must say (don’t hate me) I felt I needed a traditional grammar text in addition to Lingua Latina, and am using Wheelock’s with Dale Grotes’ book and online lectures. And writing out the tables Dowling-style.
But Lingua Latina remains both a sweet reward and a very valuable learning tool.
I actually love Lingua Latina, and do my best to read a little from it every day. It keeps up my spirit for learning, and will hopefully make it possible to actually “read” Latin one day.
I must say (don’t hate me) I felt I needed a traditional grammar text in addition to Lingua Latina, and am using Wheelock’s with Dale Grotes’ book and online lectures. And writing out the tables Dowling-style.
lol I don’t hate you; I suffered through Wheelock for a period myself, plus a good year of haunting Textkit prepared me for Lingua Latina full out. I still think its essential as core material, but the supplement of grammar in explicit English is very helpful, to be sure. It’s the higher levels where the nonsensical grammatical terms only confuse. Drives me nuts. Plus Dowling’s method is essential; in fact I nominally espouse it more than any other.
I also recommend two things: reading every chapter outloud, at least once, and rewriting it, reading outloud as you write. That way you immerse your brain in the beautiful Latinity. Worked for me, at least.
But Lingua Latina remains both a sweet reward and a very valuable learning tool.
I’d like to add that you’re clearly doing a lot of Latin at once; complimenta! If you drive yourself that hard into it, you’re certain to conquer the thing. Iterum bonam fortunam, amice.[/i]
was about to ask if the construction was typical of Latin, or a vestige of Hebrew (or a Greek translation of Hebrew)? Or perhaps both?
It’s not typical of Latin, at least not before the translation of the Vulgate. As has been mentioned, saecula saeculorum expresses an idiom characteristic of Hebrew. Many such idioms entered into Latin - corruptions, some might say - because of Jerome’s fidelity to the Hebrew text. Similarly with Greek, though many of those changes were evident before - in Plautus and Terence, for instance, which (sometimes) reveal trends in more colloquial Latin. Hence, reading the Vulgate can be vexing for one trained in classical Latin. The consolation? It’s a lot easier.
First, I must apologize. Rather that re-typing the verse in my original post (being lazy) I googled and did a cut and paste. This resulted in not only spelling errors, but more egregiously in improper citation. The proper verse is Rev 5:12-13.
So any construction issues (at least directly) came from the Greek.
Mea Culpa.
Interestingly, the two “Vulgates” I sourced online greatly expand on the “edited” passage used in the service. Why, I do not know.
Clementine Vulgate
Dignus est Agnus, qui occisus est, accipere virtutem, et divinitatem, et sapientiam, et fortitudinem, et honorem, et gloriam, et benedictionem. 13 Et omnem creaturam, quæ in cælo est, et super terram, et sub terra, et quæ sunt in mari, et quæ in eo : omnes audivi dicentes : Sedenti in throno, et Agno, benedictio et honor, et gloria, et potestas in sæcula sæculorum.
Nova Vulgate
Dignus est Agnus, qui occisus est, accipere virtutem et divitias et sapientiam et fortitudinem et honorem et gloriam et benedictionem”. 13 Et omnem creaturam, quae in caelo est et super terram et sub terra et super mare et quae in eis omnia, audivi dicentes: “Sedenti super thronum et Agno benedictio et honor et gloria et potestas in saecula saeculorum."
The Vulgate has been the Latin translation of the Bible since Jerome completed it in the…4th? 5th? century. It was essentially the only text read, used, and studied in the Middle Ages, since there was a paucity of Greek and Hebrew scholars at the time. If there are any other translations, they have none of the influence or fame of the Vulgate.
However, if anyone does find another complete, reputable translation of the Bible in Latin, I’d love to know about it!
Ah, to clarify, I didn’t write out the chapters by hand, but instead typed them all up, which has come in very handy when I’m with my computer and need to reference them, but don’t have the book with me. Typing is also a very effective means, in my opinion, of memorization, and much easier than writing by hand.
It is traditionally translated in pre-vatican II hand missals: “unto ages of ages.” Indeed, it is an idiom, and should not be translated literally because it tends to lose some of its antiquity and beauty during the liturgy if translated exactly literally. It is made to express a meaning, and I would say:
“Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto, sicut erat in principio et nunc et semper et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.”
expresses the eternal beauty of this prayer quite well when translated “unto ages of ages.”
