In Catilinam 1.7-8

Latin Learning Latin
1

Cicero starts to talk about how he was aware of the conspiracy all along.

Meministine me ante diem XII Kalendas Novembris dicere in senatu fore in armis certo die, qui dies futurus esset ante diem VI Kal. Novembris, C. Manlium, audaciae satellitem atque administrum tuae?

(“Do you remember that on XII before the Kalends of November I said in the Senate that it would be in arms on a certain day, and that day would be VI before the Kalends of November, C. Manlius, an attendant and helper to your audacity?”)

I can’t find a verb for Manlius. This leads into the next sentence: (also, why is “meministi” perfect instead of present? “Did you remember” or “have you remembered” doesn’t make much sense)

Num me fefellit, Catilina, non modo res tanta tam atrox tamque incredibilis, verum, id quod multo magis est admirandum, dies?

(“Was I mistaken, Catiline, not just in how great, how atrocious, how unbelievable the matter was, but – which should be marvelled at more – was I mistaken as to the date?”)

My commentary supplies “was I mistaken in?” for “num me fefellit”. This one was very tough in coming but I’m fairly confident in it, though it hinges on that previous sentence. Really I’m just asking here if it’s right. Is “est admirandum” a passive periphrastic like any other, even though it’s deponent?

2

fore in armis is the verb of which C. Manlius is the subject. He would be in arms on a certain day.

Memini is a defective verb – it only has a perfect stem, and the perfect has a present sense.

Allen & Greenough sec. 205:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D205

Num me fefellit, Catilina, non modo res tanta tam atrox tamque incredibilis – not “how great, how atrocious” etc., but simply "Was I mistaken in a matter so great, so atrocious . . . "

Is “est admirandum” a passive periphrastic like any other, even though it’s deponent?

Yes. A&G sec. 190d:

The gerundive, being passive in meaning, is found only in transitive verbs, or intransitive verbs used impersonally:—

1.hōc cōnfitendum est, this must be acknowledged.

2.moriendum est omnibus, all must die.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D190

By the way, did you see my last response on In Catalinam 1.3-6? You were right in the first instance, and I was wrong.

3

Yes. That was the commentary’s interpretation and not mine, though. I read sections 9 and 10 this morning with largely no problems; it’s not worth making a new thread for just a couple of questions so I’ll just post them here:

Ubinam gentium sumus?

I take this to mean “what kind of a people are we?” but I’m unsure on how he’s saying it. The dictionary is no help with “ubinam”; Lewis and Short mention it under “ubi” (I.A.3) but there just acknowledge that it exists with no translation. Taking it as “nam ubi” I get “for where are we among the peoples?” but I’m not at all confident.

…dixisti paulum tibi esse etiam nunc morae, quod ego viverem.

(“…you said that to you is now a small? delay because I lived.”)

I’m having trouble with that one clause. I omitted the beginning of the sentence because it’s very long and would obscure what I’m having trouble with, but it’s basically “you have parted up Italy among your followers, you have chosen the parts of the city to be burned, etc.” “Quod ego viverem” – is this subjunctive of quoted reason?

(Two knights are sent to Cicero’s house to kill him in his bed)

Domum meam maioribus praesidiis munivi atque firmavi, exclusi eos quos tu ad me salutatum mane miseras, cum illi ipsi venissent quos ego iam multis ac summis viris ad me id temporis venturos esse praedixeram.

(“I fortified and firmed up my house with greater?/older? guards, I shut out those whom you had sent to me to my morning reception, when those very knights came, whom I had predicted would come at that very time.”)
(Ed: “I shut out those whom you had sent to my morning reception, as the very knights I had predicted had come at the very time I had predicted they would come.”?)

I can’t figure out “iam multis ac summis viris” here. Why the pluperfect for “venissent”?

4

Ubinam gentium sumus? –

I take this to mean “what kind of a people are we?”

That’s about right.

Ubinam is an emphatic form of ubi. Lewis and Short note the genitives loci and terrae with ubi, but a genitive can be used with other words, too – “where in the world?”:

4 With terrarum, loci (v. terra and locus): non edepol nunc, ubi terrarum sim, scio, si quis roget, Plaut. Am. 1, 1, 180: quid ageres, ubi terrarum esses, Cic. Att. 5, 10, 4: ubi loci fortunae tuae sint, facile intellegis, Plaut. Capt. 5, 2, 5: ut inanis mens quaerat, ubi sit loci, Plin. 7, 24, 24, § 90.—

http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.19:10.lewisandshort

Ubinam gentium sumus? – this means something like “where in the world among nations are we?” “what kind of nation are we in?” – an expression of exasperation or indignation.

dixisti paulum tibi esse etiam nunc morae, quod ego viverem – quod is a relative pronoun. Its antecedent is paulum, and you can take it as accusative of duration, Allen & Greenough sec. 423:

Time when, or within which, is expressed by the Ablative; time how long by the Accusative.

Accusative:—
diēs continuōs trīgintā, for thirty days together.
“cum trīduum iter fēcisset ” (B. G. 2.16) , when he had marched three days.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+423&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001

The quod clause is subjunctive because it’s part of what Cat. said. Loosely, “you said that there was just a little time [paulum morae] that I would be alive.”

tibi is “ethical” dative – “for you,” but it’s hard to capture this in English. It reflects Catiline’s calculations, his erroneous belief in his own ability to control events.

Domum meam maioribus praesidiis munivi atque firmavi, exclusi eos quos tu ad me salutatum mane miseras, cum illi ipsi venissent quos ego iam multis ac summis viris ad me id temporis venturos esse praedixeram.

praesidiis is neuter. It doesn’t mean guards, but rather something like “protections”; maioribus praesidiis – “greater protections.”

iam multis ac summis viris . . . praedixeram – “I had already predicted to many very important men”. multis ac summis viris is the indirect object (or some other kind of dative) of praedixeram. multis ac summis – in English we would not use a conjunction to join these two words. “Many VIPs.” He is emphasizing that he knows Catiline’s every move in advance, and accurately told many men of the highest rank in advance what would happen.

Venissent – pluperfect because they had come before he shut them out. In English, we would say “when they came,” but Cicero’s Latin is more precise as to the sequence of events.

5

…dixisti paulum tibi esse etiam nunc morae, quod ego viverem

Let me see if I’ve got it:

Dixisti: you have said
Etiam nunc: even now
Tibi: to your interests
Esse: there is
Paulum: a small thing
Morae: of time
Quod: that (so long)
Ego: I myself
Viverem: lived.

Tough sentence. I never would have gotten it. Thanks as always.

6

After reading over the whole passage in context, I see that once again I was wrong and you were right: quod is “because”, not a relative and viverem is subjunctive because it’s part of Cat.'s reasoning; tibi esse is equivalent to “you had.” “You said that you still [etiam nunc, “even now”] had a small bit of delay, because I was alive.” Cic. goes on to say that Cat. intended to take care of that remaining problem by sending two knights to remove this impediment by assassinating Cic. (Since they were never admitted to Cic.'s house, and therefore never had a chance to carry out their plan–if that was their plan–we don’t really know whether they intended to kill Cic.)

7

Never mind. You answered my question in your post.