Iliad Bk 1, line 427

Hi, I’m trying to understand why καί μιν γουνάσομαι καί μιν πείσεσθαι ὀΐω was translated by AT Murray (Loeb) as “and i will clasp his knees and i think i will persuade him.”

πείσεσθαι is the future middle infinitive of the verb πείθω and this verb in the middle means ‘trust in, believe in, obey’.

So why wouldn’t the correct translation be “and i will clasp his knees and i think i will obey him”. True, it doesn’t make quite as much sense as AT Murray’s translation, but i’m trying to understand the use of the middle in this context.

Is it that the middle in this instance is being used in the ‘causative’ sense? i.e. i think i will ‘get’ him to be persuaded. Or alternatively is it that the middle is being used to give a sense of ‘self interest’ to the subject? i.e. i think I will persuade him ‘for the benefit of myself’. Are these typical uses of the middle even possible with verbs that take on a different meaning in their middle?

Pharr makes no reference to this line other than to say that ὀΐω should be looked upon as an expression of Thetis’ confidence in the outcome, which in itself to me implies he translates the line in the same was as Murray.

Any help on this point would be greatly appreciated (I’ve been reading Greek for less than 12 months).

That’s an excellent point to make. It does not literally mean “I reckon I’ll persuade him.” That would require πείσειν active.

But it can’t mean “I reckon I’ll obey him” either. πείθομαι takes dative, whereas νιν is accusative. Besides, it would be nonsense in the context.

Here νιν is the subject of the infinitive: “I reckon he’ll be persuaded” (or “I reckon he’ll obey”—middle and passive merge in this verb).

A word of warning, though: there are verbs which use the middle form with active meaning for the future tense. πείθω however is not one of them.

Hope this helps.

Gaza’s paraphrase has καὶ ὑπολαμβάνω πείσεσθαί μοι αὐτόν, which is another way of saying that Michael is correct in his points.