Hello all.
I find this word very difficult to say and tend to add /e/ between β-δ. So I wonder its right pronunciation and seek your advice about it.
It’s used in Demosthenes 19.287:
Νικίου τε τοῦ βδελυροῦ, ὃς ἑαυτὸν ἐμίσθωσεν εἰς Αἴγυπτον
What works for me is pronounce τοῦβ-δελυροῦ.
This is more like “Bob Dylan” where I don’t pronounce an /e/ between both.
I assume you mean classical pronunciation /bd/.
There is a modern Greek pronunciation on Forvo, but that probably doesn’t help you since they just pronounce it “v”. There is also an ancient pronunciation listed there, but that’s probably best used as an example of what not to do.
Here is a link to how I say it. I’ve recorded the whole section since it was a fun bit, and I feel like my work on accent has finally borne some fruit.
I like your recording and accent work @jeidsath. Great work!
There’s one thing not related to this thread: in your recording you seem to be using a high pitched voice. Is it because this helps you with the accent? It helps me, that’s why I’m asking. I mean, I artificially use a higher pitch as base tone so to control the pitch accent better. But I’m trying to imagine in my head how somebody with a dark voice, Alfred Hitchcock maybe?, would have sounded like.
Yeah, the higher pitch is unnatural. Listen to pitch-accent languages, like Norwegian or Japanese, and you don’t hear that sort of thing. It’s supposed to be subtle. Hopefully it’s something that will improve with practice.
Thank you both.
I’m positive it will. Do you listen to audio books? I did a lot so I’ve got some reference voices in my head. I also did some Chinese with Michel Thomas to grasp the melodic accent. I know it’s not a pitch accent. But just as you mentioned, Japanese too can get our brains used to the subtleties.
Said that, great work on your recording! 
Regardless of other aspects of ancient Greek pronunciation, we are pretty sure that both sounds were pronounced simultaneously, something very difficult for English speakers to do with consonants in initial position (but not for many African languages). It can be done with a little practice, however.
When you say simultaneously, do you mean the air of /b/ is not released before the /d/?
I mean, when I pronounce “Bob Dylan” that’s what’s happening but I never thought of that detail.
Alternatively, air can be released by the lips only, instantly stopped by /d/.
In any case, do you have a reference of the African languages you mention?
In the pronunciation system where β and δ are stops, you may find benefit considering the corresponding unvoiced set πτ along with βδ.
I agree with Barry on this. I think that πτ and βδ are digraphs, (in the same way that I take σδ as a digraph too) rather than two consequent (non-contemporaneous) stops. I think that πτ means the lips are out giving it its bilabial quality and the tongue is raised with the tip on the back of the top teeth. Non-technically, I’d put it as, say a /b/ through the /d/, or set your tongue for /d/ then say a /b/.
While making the combined sound can be done after some logical planning and quite some practice with your mouth, it may take your ear longer to hear it. The ear is not something full of muscles that we can manually configure and then train. It takes longer time and a different type of passive training.
It is natural for English speakers to end syllables with a /b/ sound, but that wasn’t Greek practice.
I’m guessing that you are thinking about the pitch accent as you are saying the words out loud. Native speakers don’t.
Now that I don’t think about the tones of Chinese, they seem to be okay. I am no longer aware that I am speaking a tonal language, but people seem to (not mis-)understand.
When I used to deliberately impose tonality on what I was saying, the results were not exemplary.
I agree, the categorical perception necessary to learn our mother tongue is in the way sometimes. What I did with my students was to pronounce minimal pairs while covering the sight of my mouth and have them point out which alternative (in this e.g. joint “bd” vs. “b” vs. “d”) they perceived giving immediate feedback.
So, I understand the simultaneous pronunciation /(bd)/ is the “correct” one and I’ll go with it.
Another question: Do we have words with onset /(bd)/ that survived through middle ages until Demotiki?
I’m surprised to see that βδέλυρος survived until Demotiki with pronunciation /βð/. In case of simultaneous pronunciation I would have expected assimilation into one occlusive instead, like IE /kʷ/ → Gr. /p/, /t/. Any thoughts on this? Is it possible βδέλυρος survived as a learned word through written language and was reinterpreted as /βð/ while not in use in spoken language?
The whole family survived. It seems the sound is natural enough that βδομάδα was “coined” too through the loss of the initial (short) vowel.
See for yourself here
Your question pre-supposes that the digossia maintained two distinct pronunciation systems.
Your question pre-supposes that the digossia maintained two distinct pronunciation systems.
I didn’t mean to imply this but there is a difference between learning a word from written text or from the surrounding speakers. Horrocks has some examples, too, but I don’t have the book with me right now.
I understand the above is one of the reasons why in English there are different pronunciations for foreign names. I’ve also met native English speakers producing /psaɪˈkɒl.ə.dʒi/ instead of /saɪˈkɒl.ə.dʒi/ due to the spelling.
I believe the question remains what principles led to /βð/ from /bd/ if they are considered a single phoneme /(bd)/. Or should we analyze /βð/ as a single phoneme /(βð)/, too? For that we definitely would have evidence.
The standard Modern Greek /v/, the earlier bilavial /β/ that you are mentiining now, and /ð/ are all continuants. The sound of one can become the sound of another by changing the shape of the mouth, in a way that we can’t do with occlusives such as the stops /b/ and /d/. The difficulties that you are bringing up for discussion about having to pronounce 2 stops together don’t arise.
I see. I’m sorry, I misread, “learned” as /ˈləːnɪd/.
Continuing with my misconception for a moment, it is common for a diglossia to have different pronunciations of the same word in different contexts, besides different grammar also. Where I live, we use different types of Chinese in different contexts. In contexts like a street food restaurant, in a taxi, a massage parlour or in conversation with street sweepers or bar workers, for example, a low form of the language (the local dialect) is used, while in a plush restaurant, an uber car, a health spa, a lobby bar etc. standard Mandarin is used. Relevant to what you are talking about, apart from the two distinct forms, there are also a range of crossover versions of the language, in which a mixture of upper and lower registers are used. Those crossover forms range from a local dialect substratum with a few technical words or place names borrowed from Mandarin right up to peole using Standard Mandarin with a word or two of the local dialect thrown in.
In cities like Shanghai or in the Hong Kong SAR speakers don’t employ a crossover form, supposedly because Mandarin, Shanghainese and Cantonese are all dialects that within themselves have a developed system of high-low differentiation - producing a situation closer to bilingualism than diglossia. Point being that words can travel very quickly between the high and low register when there are crossover form of the language, and not so well when there are two more distinct forms.
On your point now, I think that somebody starting their educational career at age nine already has quite a mature grasp of their language. Enough at least to recognise that the language of education is different from their home language. What is needed is to accept what will be taught. Home (or other social group) attitude towards the acceptance of learned (/ləːnt/) forms, grammar and words goes a long way towards determining success. If pupils are ridiculed at home for talking like the language of education as happens in some Australian Aboriginal communities, or if parents have a negative reaction to children’s acceptance of educated forms - Child, “The teacher to say it that way”, Parent, “Tell the teacher to get nicked”, or in migrant households where children only use a foreign language at home are all cases, which seem to put children at an educational disadvantage - ie less likely to accept education. In short, if there is a good attitude towards educated words, forms and grammar being used, then the lamguage of education is more likely to be accepted.
In summary, I think that what you are suggesting about βδελυρός could have happened more easily if there were crossover forms of the language and there was a positive attitude towards acceptance of those forms.
Greek phonotactics allow word-initial #πτ- and a number of words begin with this cluster. #βδ- is simply the voiced equivalent.
@ἑκηβόλος
I think our discussion has added way more information than I initially intended. I hope I’ll be able to answer in a structured way.
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I assume that if /bd/ are pronounced simultaneously then we are also talking about a single phoneme. Therefore I used writing /(bd)/. Another argument for considering a single phoneme is that my Ancient Greek dictionary doesn’t list any word with starting with onset /db/.
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I interpret modern pronunciation /vð/ as two phonemes, hence my surprise because I can’t remember
examples of languages where phonological changes split one into two phonemes but always the other way around. -
Given 1. and 2. were vaild I would find it possible that a speaker that already pronounced /v/ and /ð/ would read a written word with onset [βδ] more easily as /vð/. However, /ðv/ seems to be absent in word initial onset for Modern Greek, too. So we could consider it a single phoneme /(vð)/, and then a single phoneme would have transitioned into another single phoneme, and not into two.
What works for me is pronounce τοῦβ-δελυροῦ.
What I meant here is that if I pronounce the word including its article - so not βδελυροῦ by itself but rather τοῦβδελυροῦ - then I don’t have a conflict of introducing the /e/ - mentioned in the initial question by @gonz - into the sequence βδ.
In summary, I think that what you are suggesting about βδελυρός could have happened more easily if there were crossover forms of the language and there was a positive attitude towards acceptance of those forms.
Yes, I believe that’s what I wanted to say initially, e.g. if 3. above was true, the crossover could have been “writing pronounced by a modern/medieval speaker => modern/medieval pronunciation” .
- @Highlander
#βδ- is simply the voiced equivalent
I agree, but I believe there’s a slight difference if not pronounced simultaneously: the air release between π and τ cannot be nucleus of a syllable. On the other hand, if the air release between β and δ is voiced due to its environment then I perceive /ə/ (voiced release) and I assume this also happened to gonz@ hence the initial question. This however, would create an additional syllable, so βδελυροῦ would have four instead of three syllables, namely /bə-dɛ-ly-ruː/.
I get your point. What was written in one pronunciation system as a digraph was read from in a later one as two letters. Many years ago, I once asked to speak to a Mr Wise-heart (Wishart) and was greated by sniggers.
There is also the practical joke that goes, “M-A-C-D-O-N-A-L-D is pronounced MacDonald and M-A-C-B-R-I-D-E is pronounced MacBride, how is M-A-C-H-I-N-E-S pronounced?” (machines - MacHines) Or "If we add an “e” to the front of “book”, we get “ebook” as in electronic book, an “e” to the front of “mail” we get “email” (electronic mail), so what do we get when we add an “e” to the front of “yes”? (eyes - ee-yes as in electronic yess, is the expected incorrect response).
Reading a French word as if it were English is another example. People in the know, will not pronounce the final -s of Illinois, etc.
Russian allows #bd- in word-initial position, and Russians have no difficulty articulating this cluster without interposing a vowel. In fact, the cluster arose precisely because an intermediate short vowel dropped out.