I believe I have read conflicting information on the pronunciation of the name Liddell. Some have (in writing) said it should be stressed on the last syllable (liDELL), that is not actually merging with the American pronunciation of little, but some will stick to the famous wordplay, stress on the first syllable (lidl).
Which one is (a) preferable, and is it known (b) how the famous namebearer himself pronounced his name? Do (a) and (b) coincide? (I have heard, for instance, that Mr Everest, whose name is perpetuated in a mountain, actually pronounced his name as if consisting of words eve and rest, not ever + suffix.)
Here should be added that there are a number of English names in -ddell where this suffix is to my knowledge stressed. These would include a Waddell (I think pronounced woDELL) who edited Herodotus’ Euterpe to be used in schools, and a Biddell who on Finnish radio specifically corrected the Finnish interviewer’s pronunciation to biDELL.
This may seem a minor thing and maybe it is, but it doesn’t cease to trouble me!
Thanks, Joel. That gives some confirmation. I still expect foul play here (i.e. that both pronunciations exist), but have strongly to prefer the ultima-stressed variant as it conforms with other -ddell names.
I think I may have pronounced Liddell with the stress on the ultima long ago until I was corrected by my first Greek teacher. But since then I’ve always heard the name stressed on the first syllable.
Incidentally, in case you didn’t know this already, Liddell was the father of Alice in Wonderland. The acrostic poem at the end of Alice in Wonderland:
Thanks, Hylander. I hadn’t realised there was an akrostikon in Alice. But now we truly have the dichotomy: a rhyme strongly suggesting [lidl] and other testimonia (Joel’s link and other -ddell names) powerfully supporting the ultima-stress.
Not listed above is the standard “Little Liddell, Middle Liddell, and the Great Scott.” There is another Laudator Temporis Acti post that I remember but could not find, so it’s not here.
However, I think that creators of doggerel like the little-Liddell rhyme too much to let pronunciation stand in the way.
I’ve always assumed it was LIDDell (that’s it’s pronounced in England in the L&S combo), and that LiddELL was an ignorant Americanism. And the contemporary “second fiddle” rhyme (see Wiki) supports this—as do the other things linked by Joel. But the definitive answer is provided by Paul Naiditch (the world expert on A.E. Housman) in an article on the pronunciation of British classical scholars’ names. I don’t recall what he says (which probably means he says LIDDell), but you may be able to find it.
In the “Eleventh Eclogue,” composed anonymously by Housman in his brilliant cheeky youth, Benjamin Jowett (for whose scholarship Housman had no respect) says of Robinson Ellis (whom Housman later referred to as an idiot child):
“He used to give me gentle pokes and shakes
whene’er I made grammatical mistakes;
and when he saw my genders get unsteady
Liddell and Scott was always opened ready.”
(You can find the whole thing online, in a remarkable booklet by Naiditch, with annotations.)
Prima facie that points to LidDELL, but it could easily be first-foot stress inversion in the pentameter.
I found the Naiditch article while looking for something else.
BBC [the BBC pronouncing guide] 144: “líddl . . . is appropriate for Henry George—, joint editor of Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, and for his daughter Alice—, the heroine of ‘Alice in Wonderland’.”
He cites more verse:
“I am the Dean, this Mrs Liddell.
She plays first, I, second fiddle.
She is the Broad,
I am the High –
We are the University.”
Thank you. “Lidl” would appear to be preferable, maybe 75—80 %. Maybe we should make a poll!
I don’t quite understand what “the L&S combo” means. Combo < combination, but that doesn’t make sense…
EDIT Idiot!!! Combo meaning “the often recurring collocation Liddell ‘n’ Scott”. I was thinking about the pronunciation used in the Oxonian circles and managed to get confused. Aplgs.
No, higher than that, given the testimony in verse of his contemporaries. He was a public figure in Victorian England, and the publication of the dictionary was a big event.
“Lidl” what an admirable way of dispelling ambiguity lol. But, yes, it certainly is pronounced thus. I suppose I should cite as my source the fact that literally everybody I’ve ever known speak the name uses that pronunciation, including his would be hagiographers at Christ Church. Moreover, I’ve a friend who came up from Liddell’s house, Westminster school.
Also, this is slightly funny:
“Once a freshman, being examined by Dr. Liddell, Dean of Christ Church, in Hall, gave a very curious translation of a Greek word. ‘Where did you get that from? asked the Dean. ‘Liddell and Scott,‘ was the prompt answer. ‘It must have been Scott then: it wasn’t I,’ said the Dean.”
-Selby Henry, Good Stories from Oxford and Cambridge, p.87 (London, 1931)
Thank you, Scribo, for the additional confirmative anecdotes. The answer has now surely been ascertained beyond reasonable doubt. But only for this Liddell and his family, I surmise.
Few anecdotes can rival Oxbridge ones. I’ve heard one about Wilde, which for those who don’t know it goes as follows: Taking his viva voce in Koine Greek Wilde was asked to translate a passage which recounted the Passion. He managed it perfectly and the panel said that it will do, but Wilde responded, ‘No no, let me continue, I want to know how the story ends.’
Combo meaning “the often recurring collocation Liddell ‘n’ Scott”. I was thinking about the pronunciation used in the Oxonian circles and managed to get confused. Aplgs.